Dake Bible Discussion BoardThe failure of holding fast.

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luchnia
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The failure of holding fast.

Post by luchnia » Thu Dec 27, 2018 8:39 am

Hebrews 3:6 (KJV)
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Here the author of Hebrews states of Christ house (the saints) holding fast. The word "fast" in that text shows one is retaining, holding hard to, clasping on, etc. I kind of think of it as being latched on steadfast to something.

The mighty small two letter word "if" is used. Look at the "if we hold fast the confidence...." We are His house IF we hold fast to the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope FIRM until the end.

The author next warns the brethren about what happens if you become hardened and do not hold on and calls that an evil heart of unbelief. He shows the deceitfulness of what sin can do to the child of God (bolding my emphasis). No doubt, the deceitfulness of sin will harden a man to the point of unbelief.:

Hebrews 3:7-19 (KJV)
7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.


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Hill Top
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Re: The failure of holding fast.

Post by Hill Top » Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:49 pm

luchnia wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 8:39 am
Hebrews 3:6 (KJV)
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Here the author of Hebrews states of Christ house (the saints) holding fast. The word "fast" in that text shows one is retaining, holding hard to, clasping on, etc. I kind of think of it as being latched on steadfast to something.

The mighty small two letter word "if" is used. Look at the "if we hold fast the confidence...." We are His house IF we hold fast to the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope FIRM until the end.

The author next warns the brethren about what happens if you become hardened and do not hold on and calls that an evil heart of unbelief. He shows the deceitfulness of what sin can do to the child of God (bolding my emphasis). No doubt, the deceitfulness of sin will harden a man to the point of unbelief.:
These scriptures are a death blow to OSAS.



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bibleman
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Re: The failure of holding fast.

Post by bibleman » Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:19 am

Hill Top wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:49 pm
luchnia wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 8:39 am
Hebrews 3:6 (KJV)
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Here the author of Hebrews states of Christ house (the saints) holding fast. The word "fast" in that text shows one is retaining, holding hard to, clasping on, etc. I kind of think of it as being latched on steadfast to something.

The mighty small two letter word "if" is used. Look at the "if we hold fast the confidence...." We are His house IF we hold fast to the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope FIRM until the end.

The author next warns the brethren about what happens if you become hardened and do not hold on and calls that an evil heart of unbelief. He shows the deceitfulness of what sin can do to the child of God (bolding my emphasis). No doubt, the deceitfulness of sin will harden a man to the point of unbelief.:
These scriptures are a death blow to OSAS.
I agree Hill Top,

BUT I was under the impression that you did NOT believe a Christian could fall away from their salvation.


God bless
Leon Bible

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The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

Hill Top
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Re: The failure of holding fast.

Post by Hill Top » Fri Dec 28, 2018 2:22 pm

bibleman wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:19 am
I agree Hill Top,
BUT I was under the impression that you did NOT believe a Christian could fall away from their salvation.
You point out an interesting conundrum.
First, though I do believe that those who have God's seed in them cannot fall away, our salvation won't be assured till after the final judgement.
We must be wary till the end of our lives, not to be found wanting at the end of time.
So to say "I am saved" is kind of a misnomer.
That makes OSAS a moot point.

God has given me, and the rest of humanity, everything we need to remain faithful.
But that doesn't mean we will.
Plenty of men who proclaimed their salvation have shown that they weren't carrying God's seed.
Twenty years of a perfect life can be betrayed by one lie or theft.
Thank God for verses such as..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor 10:13)
Keep looking for the escapes !



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Re: The failure of holding fast.

Post by bibleman » Sat Dec 29, 2018 1:03 pm

Hill Top wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 2:22 pm
bibleman wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:19 am
I agree Hill Top,
BUT I was under the impression that you did NOT believe a Christian could fall away from their salvation.
You point out an interesting conundrum.
First, though I do believe that those who have God's seed in them cannot fall away, our salvation won't be assured till after the final judgement.
We must be wary till the end of our lives, not to be found wanting at the end of time.
So to say "I am saved" is kind of a misnomer.
That makes OSAS a moot point.

God has given me, and the rest of humanity, everything we need to remain faithful.
But that doesn't mean we will.
Plenty of men who proclaimed their salvation have shown that they weren't carrying God's seed.
Twenty years of a perfect life can be betrayed by one lie or theft.
Thank God for verses such as..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor 10:13)
Keep looking for the escapes !
Hi Hill Top

Above you said: "I do believe that those who have God's seed in them cannot fall away,..."

Then you say: "We must be wary till the end of our lives, not to be found wanting at the end of time."

Question if we cannot fall away as you first say... Then how can your second statement possible make any kind of sense? "We must be wary till the end of our lives, not to be found wanting at the end of time."


God bless
Leon Bible

http://www.ministryhelps.com
http://www.dakebible.com
http://www.dakebibleboard.com
https://www.facebook.com/groups/DakeBibleDiscussion/

The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

Hill Top
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Re: The failure of holding fast.

Post by Hill Top » Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:36 pm

bibleman wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 1:03 pm
Hi Hill Top
Above you said: "I do believe that those who have God's seed in them cannot fall away,..."
Then you say: "We must be wary till the end of our lives, not to be found wanting at the end of time."

Question if we cannot fall away as you first say... Then how can your second statement possible make any kind of sense? "We must be wary till the end of our lives, not to be found wanting at the end of time."
There is a war for our souls going on.
Every day, trials will assault our heritage in Christ.
Those with God's seed in them will do all they can not to fall, and by the grace of God will weather every trial.
Those without God's seed in them cannot resist all the temptations of this world.
By the gifts given to us by God we are capable of remaining pure: but if we neglect or ignore those gifts we show from whose seed we are really of.

Remaining a Christian takes effort.
Christianity isn't a "force field" from sin.
It is the tools we require to manifest we are of God.

BTW, it isn't "me" that says we can't fall away.
It is 1 John 3:9.



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luchnia
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Re: The failure of holding fast.

Post by luchnia » Sun Dec 30, 2018 7:06 am

Hill Top wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:36 pm
Those with God's seed in them will do all they can not to fall, and by the grace of God will weather every trial.

Those without God's seed in them cannot resist all the temptations of this world.

BTW, it isn't "me" that says we can't fall away.
It is 1 John 3:9.
Interesting and rigid dichotomy you have built. BTW, before I start, 1 Jn 3:9 does not in any way state that one cannot fall away. It merely states that one with God's seed cannot commit sin for His seed remaineth in him.

The statement you made above about "Those with God's seed in them will do all they can not to fall..." The "will do all they can"indicates there is a possibility of falling because their "all" might not be enough to pull them through.

According to your belief of one cannot fall, how can that be? If they cannot sin, they cannot fall, right? What would it matter if they were tempted by all the temptations of this world since they cannot fall because of God's seed?

I am reminded of what was said by the serpent, "And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?" and then of course the words of deception, "Ye shalt not surely die."


Word up!

Hill Top
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Re: The failure of holding fast.

Post by Hill Top » Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:28 pm

luchnia wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 7:06 am
Interesting and rigid dichotomy you have built. BTW, before I start, 1 Jn 3:9 does not in any way state that one cannot fall away. It merely states that one with God's seed cannot commit sin for His seed remaineth in him.
If not being able to commit sin doesn't translate to not being able to fall away, you are deluding yourself.
The statement you made above about "Those with God's seed in them will do all they can not to fall..." The "will do all they can"indicates there is a possibility of falling because their "all" might not be enough to pull them through.
Let me rephrase it for you...
Those with God's seed in them will never show any other seed's fruit.
Other fruit would prove they are born of the devil; not of God.
According to your belief of one cannot fall, how can that be? If they cannot sin, they cannot fall, right? What would it matter if they were tempted by all the temptations of this world since they cannot fall because of God's seed?
You misquoted my belief.
According to "my" belief, one WITH GOD'S SEED IN THEM cannot commit sin (fall)
God says we will never be tempted above that which we are able to resist, in 1 Cor 10:13.
I am reminded of what was said by the serpent, "And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?" and then of course the words of deception, "Ye shalt not surely die."
It's too bad you use the words of the devil to refute God's righteousness on earth now.
God said..."Be ye holy for I am holy" (1 Peter 1:16)
Jesus said..."Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matt 5:48)
Paul said..."Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)
Who are you going to obey?



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luchnia
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Re: The failure of holding fast.

Post by luchnia » Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:18 pm

Hill Top wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:28 pm
I am reminded of what was said by the serpent, "And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?" and then of course the words of deception, "Ye shalt not surely die."
It's too bad you use the words of the devil to refute God's righteousness on earth now.
God said..."Be ye holy for I am holy" (1 Peter 1:16)
Jesus said..."Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matt 5:48)
Paul said..."Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)
Who are you going to obey?
I think you are misunderstanding the intent of the words I posted from the serpent. I am not using those words to refute God's righteousness on earth, but merely indicating the method of deceit used by the serpent. I was hoping you could see the parallel.

To sum it up, the evil one is basically saying that if they eat of the tree they won't fall away. Of course, we know that was a lie and they did fall away.


Word up!

Hill Top
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Re: The failure of holding fast.

Post by Hill Top » Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:24 pm

luchnia wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:18 pm
I think you are misunderstanding the intent of the words I posted from the serpent. I am not using those words to refute God's righteousness on earth, but merely indicating the method of deceit used by the serpent. I was hoping you could see the parallel.

To sum it up, the evil one is basically saying that if they eat of the tree they won't fall away. Of course, we know that was a lie and they did fall away.
Do you see a difference between "falling away" and "committing sin"?
I don't, as each is the manifestation of the other.



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