Dake Bible Discussion BoardChinese Pastor Penned a Powerful Declaration of Faith Before Being Dragged Off to Prison

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Re: Chinese Pastor Penned a Powerful Declaration of Faith Before Being Dragged Off to Prison

Post by Spiritblade Disciple » Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:50 pm

Hill Top,

I really enjoy reading your insights concerning water baptism and what it is and what it represents.

Still having trouble accepting the guaranteed sinless perfection if a person is really saved part of your position. Ultimately, I don't see how a person can "know" that they will never sin again. Therefore, I don't see how a person can actually "know" that they are saved.

Dake's Conditional Security position seems more sensible, to me. When a person is born again, they are saved so long as they aren't committing what Dake calls "death penalty" sins.

How many people do you know in person who are definitely saved?


Acts 10:42-43 King James Version
"And He commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is He which was ordained of God to be the Judge of Quick and Dead. To Him give all the Prophets witness, that through His Name WHOSEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM SHALL RECEIVE REMISSION OF SINS."

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luchnia
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Re: Chinese Pastor Penned a Powerful Declaration of Faith Before Being Dragged Off to Prison

Post by luchnia » Thu Dec 20, 2018 7:26 am

Hill Top wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:45 pm
Good I'm glad we agree on that.
When you say..."once sin has dawned in the heart", what do you mean?
Do you mean..."Once the temptation to sin has dawned, arisen, been forced into the heart..."?
To me, "dawned in the heart" means "has been manifested".
It is here. done, present.
[/quote]

We may not disagree as much as it appears, although I am certain in some areas we do disagree.

Let's go over this process once more. Think of a simple top down process with a short number of simple and very basic steps.

Here is how a born again child of God can fall away to sin and serve satan. Do not confuse this with a sinner whom is already lost and following satan. He is separated from God and in darkness serving satan so nothing for him to be overcome by. It is imperative not to confuse the two states or this process will not be understood.

1. A man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust and enticed.
Notice the words, tempted, drawn, and enticed. This temptation comes from evil and not God. God cannot be tempted by evil. One cannot be drawn away from a position that he is not in.

2. The point in time when lust has birthed or conceived.
Man always has control of stopping this process and refusing to sin. When men say otherwise they make God a liar. I have heard those statements of, "I could not help it" which is horse yore. This step in time is vital to understanding the process of falling away. Consider a man on a rung of a ladder and someone enticing them from the position to step down from that rung.

One must be overcome (be drawn away from a certain point - taken over) to give birth the the enticement of lust before sin can happen. Sin cannot happen at any other step in the process. All the claiming of thoughts being sin by the unlearned is not scriptural and should not be entertained.

3. When this lust has conceived it brings forth sin in the individual.
Notice that it is "when" lust has conceived, not before and not after, but at that very moment - that "atom" or "millisecond" of time. The conception, or birth, of this lust is the critical point.

You could state, when it is dawned, conceived, or birthed in the heart spiritual death occurs. Spiritual death is never a thought process as thoughts can be changed and contained before they can become spirit. Conception in this case essentially means the action is carried out in the spirit of man and will be fully manifested by his action.

4. This "sin" process culminates in separation from God or as many put it, spiritual death.

Since God can have NO part in darkness, any man claiming that he is born again and sinning is "missing the boat" which brings to life the fact that one with God's seed cannot sin. It simply will not, nor cannot happen. One must be drawn away and enticed of their own lust by evil (overcome) before they can sin, which by the way, is NOT God's seed, but evil seed.


Word up!

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Re: Chinese Pastor Penned a Powerful Declaration of Faith Before Being Dragged Off to Prison

Post by Hill Top » Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:40 pm

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:50 pm
Hill Top,
I really enjoy reading your insights concerning water baptism and what it is and what it represents.
Still having trouble accepting the guaranteed sinless perfection if a person is really saved part of your position. Ultimately, I don't see how a person can "know" that they will never sin again. Therefore, I don't see how a person can actually "know" that they are saved.
As our "salvation" will not be assured till Jesus comes back, I don't say things like..."I'm saved"! Or, "They are saved."
I can say that I'm on the road to salvation, and doing all I can to insure it, though.
A man that "will be" saved must be sin free, as the alternative will result in Jesus saying..."I never knew you".
When men are reborn of God's seed they cannot bring forth evil fruit.
That rebirth happens when we are "raised with Christ to walk in newness of life".
That happens when we are immersed into Christ and into His crucifixion and burial. (Rom 6:3-6)
The next verse of Romans 6 tells us the results..."For he that is dead is freed from sin". (Rom 6:7)
Dake's Conditional Security position seems more sensible, to me. When a person is born again, they are saved so long as they aren't committing what Dake calls "death penalty" sins.
That is in essence what I am saying too.
But he seems to be neglecting the certainty of the matter.
Rebirth from God's seed eliminates evil fruit being produced, so the reborn can't follow another road or leader.
They cannot serve two masters.

BTW, all sins are "death penalty" sins.
Adam ate one apple and earned death.
How many people do you know in person who are definitely saved?
None, as their lives aren't finished yet.
But I know of 16 that are on the right path here in America and an unknown number in the church of Ghana.
Please keep them all in your prayers.



Hill Top
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Re: Chinese Pastor Penned a Powerful Declaration of Faith Before Being Dragged Off to Prison

Post by Hill Top » Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:18 pm

luchnia wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 7:26 am
We may not disagree as much as it appears, although I am certain in some areas we do disagree.
Let's go over this process once more. Think of a simple top down process with a short number of simple and very basic steps.
appreciate your willingness to get to the bottom of the matter.
Here is how a born again child of God can fall away to sin and serve satan. Do not confuse this with a sinner whom is already lost and following satan. He is separated from God and in darkness serving satan so nothing for him to be overcome by. It is imperative not to confuse the two states or this process will not be understood.
He whom you call a "born of God person" falling away, I call a "never born again person".
If they commit sin, the evidence speaks for itself.
They may have gone months or years without sinning, but their true seed eventually wins out.
Sinners are sinners no matter the time between sins.
1. A man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust and enticed.
Notice the words, tempted, drawn, and enticed. This temptation comes from evil and not God. God cannot be tempted by evil. One cannot be drawn away from a position that he is not in.
Jesus was tempted.
What "position" was He drawn away from?
Temptation, enticement, and being drawn away aren't failures.
They are the options we are given in life.
The forks in the road we must choose from.
Serve God or serve your own lusts
2. The point in time when lust has birthed or conceived.
Man always has control of stopping this process and refusing to sin. When men say otherwise they make God a liar. I have heard those statements of, "I could not help it" which is horse yore. This step in time is vital to understanding the process of falling away. Consider a man on a rung of a ladder and someone enticing them from the position to step down from that rung.
You say "birthed", which I see as "given birth".
Correct?
One must be overcome (be drawn away from a certain point - taken over) to give birth to the claiming of the enticement of lust before sin can happen. Sin cannot happen at any other step in the process. All this being sin by the unlearned is not scriptural and should not be entertained.
You could shorten up your first sentence with "gave in to" a temptation before sin can happen.
3. When this lust has conceived it brings forth sin in the individual.
Notice that it is "when" lust has conceived, not before and not after, but at that very moment - that "atom" or "millisecond" of time.
The conception, or birth, of this lust is the critical point.
Better said may be..."The conception, or birth FROM this lust is the critical point.
Lust isn't sin, Enticement isn't sin. Temptation isn't sin.
What they bring forth is sin.
You could state, when it is dawned, conceived, or birthed in the heart spiritual death occurs. Spiritual death is never a thought process as thoughts can be changed and contained before they can become spirit.
Conception in this case essentially means the action is carried out in the spirit of man and will be fully manifested by his action.
Carried out by the spirit of man? The spirit of man can't DO anything.
Is this coveting, covetousness?
4. This "sin" process culminates in separation from God or as many put it, spiritual death.
Since God can have NO part in darkness, any man claiming that he is born again and sinning is "missing the boat" which brings to life the fact that one with God's seed cannot sin. It simply will not, nor cannot happen. One must be drawn away and enticed of their own lust by evil (overcome) before they can sin, which by the way, is NOT God's seed, but evil seed.
Again you equate "enticement" with "overcome".
Hunger is an enticement, eating is the sin. (Analogy warning !)



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Re: Chinese Pastor Penned a Powerful Declaration of Faith Before Being Dragged Off to Prison

Post by Spiritblade Disciple » Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:17 pm

Hill Top wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:40 pm
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:50 pm
Hill Top,
I really enjoy reading your insights concerning water baptism and what it is and what it represents.
Still having trouble accepting the guaranteed sinless perfection if a person is really saved part of your position. Ultimately, I don't see how a person can "know" that they will never sin again. Therefore, I don't see how a person can actually "know" that they are saved.
As our "salvation" will not be assured till Jesus comes back, I don't say things like..."I'm saved"! Or, "They are saved."
I can say that I'm on the road to salvation, and doing all I can to insure it, though.
A man that "will be" saved must be sin free, as the alternative will result in Jesus saying..."I never knew you".
When men are reborn of God's seed they cannot bring forth evil fruit.
That rebirth happens when we are "raised with Christ to walk in newness of life".
That happens when we are immersed into Christ and into His crucifixion and burial. (Rom 6:3-6)
The next verse of Romans 6 tells us the results..."For he that is dead is freed from sin". (Rom 6:7)
Dake's Conditional Security position seems more sensible, to me. When a person is born again, they are saved so long as they aren't committing what Dake calls "death penalty" sins.
That is in essence what I am saying too.
But he seems to be neglecting the certainty of the matter.
Rebirth from God's seed eliminates evil fruit being produced, so the reborn can't follow another road or leader.
They cannot serve two masters.

BTW, all sins are "death penalty" sins.
Adam ate one apple and earned death.
How many people do you know in person who are definitely saved?
None, as their lives aren't finished yet.
But I know of 16 that are on the right path here in America and an unknown number in the church of Ghana.
Please keep them all in your prayers.
Thank you, Hill Top. Good answers. :angel:


Acts 10:42-43 King James Version
"And He commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is He which was ordained of God to be the Judge of Quick and Dead. To Him give all the Prophets witness, that through His Name WHOSEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM SHALL RECEIVE REMISSION OF SINS."

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luchnia
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Re: Chinese Pastor Penned a Powerful Declaration of Faith Before Being Dragged Off to Prison

Post by luchnia » Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:59 am

Hill Top wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:18 pm

He whom you call a "born of God person" falling away, I call a "never born again person".
This we disagree on.

Hill Top wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:18 pm
Jesus was tempted.
What "position" was He drawn away from?
I did not imply Jesus fell away. I think you may have read something into that or I simply did not explain it well. Scripture states He was tempted in every way as a man, but even though He was at a weakened state He did not allow Himself to be overcome by temptation to the point of sin.

Hill Top wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:18 pm
Carried out by the spirit of man? The spirit of man can't DO anything.
Is this coveting, covetousness?
We disagree on this as well. Man's spirit is what controls all that he does.

Hill Top wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:18 pm
Again you equate "enticement" with "overcome".
Hunger is an enticement, eating is the sin. (Analogy warning !)
Enticement and overcome are not the same. I don't make the two equal. Not sure what in my post indicated they were. To be enticed does not mean one is overcome with the enticement. Enticement is not the point at which one has given in.


Word up!

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Re: Chinese Pastor Penned a Powerful Declaration of Faith Before Being Dragged Off to Prison

Post by Hill Top » Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:46 pm

luchnia wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:59 am
We disagree on this as well. Man's spirit is what controls all that he does.
This may simply a matter of semantics.
Thank God we have the Spirit of God, now.
Enticement and overcome are not the same. I don't make the two equal. Not sure what in my post indicated they were. To be enticed does not mean one is overcome with the enticement. Enticement is not the point at which one has given in.
You wrote..."One must be drawn away and enticed of their own lust by evil (overcome) before they can sin, "
It seems like you implied an equality between "enticement" and "overcome" here.
Had you omitted the word "overcome", we could agree.
The "results" of being drawn away and enticed might end up in sin, (overcome), but not if you refuse the bait.



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Re: Chinese Pastor Penned a Powerful Declaration of Faith Before Being Dragged Off to Prison

Post by branham1965 » Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:41 pm

Hill Top

ARE you trying to affirm that there are only 16 "on the right path " here in America.Is that only 16 individuals or churches??

And you say that there is a church in Guyana.

Wow.



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Re: Chinese Pastor Penned a Powerful Declaration of Faith Before Being Dragged Off to Prison

Post by luchnia » Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:26 pm

Hill Top wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:46 pm
luchnia wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:59 am
We disagree on this as well. Man's spirit is what controls all that he does.
This may simply a matter of semantics.
Thank God we have the Spirit of God, now.
Enticement and overcome are not the same. I don't make the two equal. Not sure what in my post indicated they were. To be enticed does not mean one is overcome with the enticement. Enticement is not the point at which one has given in.
You wrote..."One must be drawn away and enticed of their own lust by evil (overcome) before they can sin, "
It seems like you implied an equality between "enticement" and "overcome" here.
Had you omitted the word "overcome", we could agree.
The "results" of being drawn away and enticed might end up in sin, (overcome), but not if you refuse the bait.
I see what you mean about the statement now and appreciate the feedback. I can see how that looks equal, now that I read it once again.


Word up!

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Re: Chinese Pastor Penned a Powerful Declaration of Faith Before Being Dragged Off to Prison

Post by Hill Top » Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:59 pm

branham1965 wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:41 pm
Hill Top
ARE you trying to affirm that there are only 16 "on the right path " here in America. Is that only 16 individuals or churches??
And you say that there is a church in Guyana.
16 people, that I know personally, but who knows how many others are out there.
Did you expect to hear that there are thousands who love God above all else?
I wish....

I say Ghana because we started a church there.
Our pastor has visited them twice, that I know of.
He got malaria his first time over there.

We have also preached the word to Nigerians, Englishmen, Swiss folks, Samoans, Finns, Mexicans, Canadians, Japanese, Australians, and Native Americans...{since my time in the Church By Christ Jesus (Eph 3:21) }
What they did with the information is not available to me.



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