Dake Bible Discussion BoardPurpose of the law

General Discussion Forum devoted to the study of God's Word in Honor of Finis J. Dake.
Post Reply
User avatar
luchnia
He Which Soweth Sparingly Shall Reap also Sparingly
Posts: 1464
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2014 6:01 am

Re: Purpose of the law

Post by luchnia » Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:56 am

Hill Top wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:51 pm
Water baptism does not remit sins as it does not have power to remit sins.
It is written..."Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38)

I am free from sin because of the miracles inherent in water baptism.
Start with the verse you have posted and consider this. Is water baptism for remission of sins that you have previously remitted, or does physical water remit sins? There is no miracle in water baptism. If that were the case, it would be all that one needs for removing sin.

When one repents and forsakes sin, they are forgiven Read 1 Jn 1:9, Rom 10:9-10. After this event occurs one can be water baptized to show the symbol of death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. Read 1 Pet 3:21 and you will see a water immersion does not remit your sins. Water baptism shows that you have repented, not that you will repent, or that water will remit your sin.

What changed the men in Acts 2:37 that caused them to ask the question they did? Where their hearts pierced by the word spoken to them? Did water do that? Peter had the exact answer for those men. REPENT and be BAPTIZED. Sins are remitted at true repentance of the heart. Water baptism is because you have remitted sins, not to remit sins. Pay close attention to verse 41 at the words "gladly received his word" and then what? Yes, they were baptized.

One is saved by grace through faith. It is by the gospel that men are saved, not water. We declare our sins remitted through the forbearance of God, not water. Jesus redeemed us. He is our propitiation through faith in His blood, not water. Read these verses Eph 2:8-9; Rom 1:16; 3:24-25; 5:1 for more information.

Again, you absolutely should be baptized if at all possible. Don't imply that I exclude that. Being baptized in water does not change the fact that water is powerless to remit sins. Maybe you should see a man repent and be saved where there is no water for him to be baptized in and watch him as he is cleaned and made whole. Sins are only remitted through repentance and the forsaken of sin by faith in Jesus Christ.


Word up!

Hill Top
Teach All Nations to Observe All Things Whatsoever Jesus Hath Commanded
Posts: 832
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:29 pm

Re: Purpose of the law

Post by Hill Top » Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:15 pm

:evilbat:
luchnia wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:56 am
"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38)

Start with the verse you have posted, ("Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38)), and consider this. Is water baptism for remission of sins that you have previously remitted,
My sins could not be remitted before water baptism.
or does physical water remit sins? There is no miracle in water baptism. If that were the case, it would be all that one needs for removing sin.
The water is the blood of Christ.
It is written..."And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." (1 John 5:8)
When one repents and forsakes sin, they are forgiven Read 1 Jn 1:9, Rom 10:9-10.
I see no mention of repentance in 1 John 1:9.
Our confession of sins is done AT our baptism in water.
It is written..."And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins." (Matt 3:6)
And..."And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins." (Mark 1:5)
After this event occurs one can be water baptized to show the symbol of death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus.
To you baptism into Christ's death in only a symbol; but to me it is an actual event.
Read 1 Pet 3:21, "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:", and you will see a water immersion does not remit your sins. Water baptism shows that you have repented, not that you will repent, or that water will remit your sin.
Just because it isn't mentioned, doesn't mean it isn't inferred.
Let's read 1 Peter 3:21 without the parenthesis part..."The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us... by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
If baptism isn't necessary for a clean conscience toward God, then neither is the resurrection of Christ.
You continue to deny the very verse you quote.
Did the ark save Noah and his family?
Yes.
The like figure also saves us now.
What changed the men in Acts 2:37 that caused them to ask the question they did? Where their hearts pierced by the word spoken to them? Did water do that? Peter had the exact answer for those men. REPENT and be BAPTIZED. Sins are remitted at true repentance of the heart. Water baptism is because you have remitted sins, not to remit sins. Pay close attention to verse 41 at the words "gladly received his word" and then what? Yes, they were baptized.
You chopped off the important part in the next verse, but I can understand as it destroys your POV.
It is written..."Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
One is saved by grace through faith. It is by the gospel that men are saved, not water. We declare our sins remitted through the forbearance of God, not water. Jesus redeemed us. He is our propitiation through faith in His blood, not water. Read these verses Eph 2:8-9; Rom 1:16; 3:24-25; 5:1 for more information.
I sure am glad that I had faith in water baptism.
Again, you absolutely should be baptized if at all possible. Don't imply that I exclude that. Being baptized in water does not change the fact that water is powerless to remit sins. Maybe you should see a man repent and be saved where there is no water for him to be baptized in and watch him as he is cleaned and made whole. Sins are only remitted through repentance and the forsaken of sin by faith in Jesus Christ.
Wasn't water supplied for the Ethiopian eunuch?
God will not abandon the repentant for lack of water.
He created water so can put it wherever it is needed.

Your POV ignores Col 2:10-13..."And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;"
These verses correlate perfectly with Rom 6:3-6 in their description of the effects of water baptism.
They didn't mention "showing everybody you believe" at all



User avatar
Spiritblade Disciple
Little Children, Let No Man Deceive You: He that Doeth Righteousness is Righteous, Even as He is Righteous
Posts: 4875
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2004 6:27 pm

Re: Purpose of the law

Post by Spiritblade Disciple » Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:29 pm

Hi, Hill Top.

Do you believe the communion elements are the actual body and blood of Christ?


Job 14:4 King James Version
Who can bring a CLEAN thing out of an UNCLEAN? Not one.

Hill Top
Teach All Nations to Observe All Things Whatsoever Jesus Hath Commanded
Posts: 832
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:29 pm

Re: Purpose of the law

Post by Hill Top » Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:11 pm

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:29 pm
Hi, Hill Top.
Do you believe the communion elements are the actual body and blood of Christ?
Hi, Spiritblade,
Only in this respect...
It is written..."For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." (Col 1:16-17)
As verse 17 states, "by Him all things consist".

Of course if we use this logic we must also say that my tires, and my cat, and my key ring, and all the nuclear weapons also consist of Christ Jesus.
Is that too far fetched for you?,
I don't want to come across as an Animist, (who believe everything has a soul), but I see God in all of creation.
I don't worship His creation, and I don't worship the bread and wine, but I do worship Jesus Christ.

The bread and wine are used to remind us of the sacrifice our Lord provided for us at His crucifixion.

What do you think of the elements of communion?



User avatar
luchnia
He Which Soweth Sparingly Shall Reap also Sparingly
Posts: 1464
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2014 6:01 am

Re: Purpose of the law

Post by luchnia » Sat Dec 01, 2018 6:42 am

Hill Top wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:11 pm
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:29 pm
Hi, Hill Top.
Do you believe the communion elements are the actual body and blood of Christ?
Hi, Spiritblade,
Only in this respect...
It is written..."For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." (Col 1:16-17)
As verse 17 states, "by Him all things consist".

Of course if we use this logic we must also say that my tires, and my cat, and my key ring, and all the nuclear weapons also consist of Christ Jesus.
Is that too far fetched for you?,
I don't want to come across as an Animist, (who believe everything has a soul), but I see God in all of creation.
I don't worship His creation, and I don't worship the bread and wine, but I do worship Jesus Christ.

The bread and wine are used to remind us of the sacrifice our Lord provided for us at His crucifixion.

What do you think of the elements of communion?
Interesting that you believe water remits sins but don't believe that bread and wine are the body and blood of Jesus and yet Jesus said they were. You use a different rule for one doctrine than you do for the other.

One might ask if blood is water or wine because of what the scripture shows, but you maintain that blood is water thus one can see why in your view why wine would not be blood.


Word up!

User avatar
Spiritblade Disciple
Little Children, Let No Man Deceive You: He that Doeth Righteousness is Righteous, Even as He is Righteous
Posts: 4875
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2004 6:27 pm

Re: Purpose of the law

Post by Spiritblade Disciple » Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:43 pm

Hill Top wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:11 pm
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:29 pm
Hi, Hill Top.
Do you believe the communion elements are the actual body and blood of Christ?
Hi, Spiritblade,
Only in this respect...
It is written..."For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." (Col 1:16-17)
As verse 17 states, "by Him all things consist".

Of course if we use this logic we must also say that my tires, and my cat, and my key ring, and all the nuclear weapons also consist of Christ Jesus.
Is that too far fetched for you?,
I don't want to come across as an Animist, (who believe everything has a soul), but I see God in all of creation.
I don't worship His creation, and I don't worship the bread and wine, but I do worship Jesus Christ.

The bread and wine are used to remind us of the sacrifice our Lord provided for us at His crucifixion.

What do you think of the elements of communion?
What do I think? I agree with Jesus. He said the elements are His body and His blood.

Who am I to disagree with Him?

I find the fact that you don't discern (see, understand) the elements as His body and blood inconsistent with your ability to grasp the baptismal waters as His blood.
John 6:53-57 King James Version
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye eat the flesh of the Son of Man, and drink His blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth My flesh, and drinketh My blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the Last Day. For My flesh is meat indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. He that eateth My flesh, and drinketh My blood, dwelleth in Me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent Me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth Me, even he shall live by Me."
If you do not eat His flesh and blood, you have no life in you.


Job 14:4 King James Version
Who can bring a CLEAN thing out of an UNCLEAN? Not one.

User avatar
luchnia
He Which Soweth Sparingly Shall Reap also Sparingly
Posts: 1464
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2014 6:01 am

Re: Purpose of the law

Post by luchnia » Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:17 pm

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:43 pm
What do I think? I agree with Jesus. He said the elements are His body and His blood.

Who am I to disagree with Him?

I find the fact that you don't discern (see, understand) the elements as His body and blood inconsistent with your ability to grasp the baptismal waters as His blood.
John 6:53-57 King James Version
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye eat the flesh of the Son of Man, and drink His blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth My flesh, and drinketh My blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the Last Day. For My flesh is meat indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. He that eateth My flesh, and drinketh My blood, dwelleth in Me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent Me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth Me, even he shall live by Me."
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:43 pm
If you do not eat His flesh and blood, you have no life in you.
From those verses he does not have eternal life, nor will he be raised up, and Christ does not dwell in him, nor he in Christ. Only thing he has is his belief that his sins are remitted from water baptism.


Word up!

Hill Top
Teach All Nations to Observe All Things Whatsoever Jesus Hath Commanded
Posts: 832
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:29 pm

Re: Purpose of the law

Post by Hill Top » Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:42 pm

luchnia wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 6:42 am
Interesting that you believe water remits sins but don't believe that bread and wine are the body and blood of Jesus and yet Jesus said they were. You use a different rule for one doctrine than you do for the other.
I don't believe water remits sin.
I believe that baptism in water remits sin...as the water and blood "agree in one".
One might ask if blood is water or wine because of what the scripture shows, but you maintain that blood is water thus one can see why in your view why wine would not be blood.
I see no mention of wine in 1 John 5:8.

As long as we are trying to determine if wine and bread are the Lord's blood and body, is all bread the Lord's body?
Whole wheat, white, sour dough, and rye are all the same?
Is only unleavened bread the Lord's body?
Is it only red wine that is the Lord's blood?
Are they transfigured by some special prayer, or is all the bread on the bread shelf at the store the Lord's body??
This borders on the catholic teachings of transfiguration.
What makes them the Lord's body and blood?

As much as you are trying to convince me that some special sort of wine is the Lord's blood, why do you have so much trouble believing the waters of baptism are the Lord's blood?



Hill Top
Teach All Nations to Observe All Things Whatsoever Jesus Hath Commanded
Posts: 832
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:29 pm

Re: Purpose of the law

Post by Hill Top » Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:09 pm

:snipersmile:
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:43 pm
What do I think? I agree with Jesus. He said the elements are His body and His blood.
Who am I to disagree with Him?

I find the fact that you don't discern (see, understand) the elements as His body and blood inconsistent with your ability to grasp the baptismal waters as His blood.
John 6:53-57 King James Version
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye eat the flesh of the Son of Man, and drink His blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth My flesh, and drinketh My blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the Last Day. For My flesh is meat indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. He that eateth My flesh, and drinketh My blood, dwelleth in Me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent Me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth Me, even he shall live by Me."
If you do not eat His flesh and blood, you have no life in you.
As a I previously asked Luchnia, is all the bread on the bread shelf at the store the Lord's body?
How does some bread become the Lord's body?

As Christians are not cannibals, instead of imagining eating the Lord's body and blood I think of "partaking" of the body and blood of my Savior.
I think of the new life provided by my unification with Him in His crucifixion, and resurrection, and my atonement, justification, and sanctification, all supplied by partaking in His blood, done at my water baptism into Christ and into His death, burial, and resurrection.
I live anew because I "partook" of His being.
And I remember it every time I do communion.



User avatar
Spiritblade Disciple
Little Children, Let No Man Deceive You: He that Doeth Righteousness is Righteous, Even as He is Righteous
Posts: 4875
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2004 6:27 pm

Re: Purpose of the law

Post by Spiritblade Disciple » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:13 pm

Hill Top wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:09 pm
:snipersmile:
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:43 pm
What do I think? I agree with Jesus. He said the elements are His body and His blood.
Who am I to disagree with Him?

I find the fact that you don't discern (see, understand) the elements as His body and blood inconsistent with your ability to grasp the baptismal waters as His blood.
John 6:53-57 King James Version
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye eat the flesh of the Son of Man, and drink His blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth My flesh, and drinketh My blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the Last Day. For My flesh is meat indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. He that eateth My flesh, and drinketh My blood, dwelleth in Me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent Me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth Me, even he shall live by Me."
If you do not eat His flesh and blood, you have no life in you.
As a I previously asked Luchnia, is all the bread on the bread shelf at the store the Lord's body?
How does some bread become the Lord's body?

As Christians are not cannibals, instead of imagining eating the Lord's body and blood I think of "partaking" of the body and blood of my Savior.
I think of the new life provided by my unification with Him in His crucifixion, and resurrection, and my atonement, justification, and sanctification, all supplied by partaking in His blood, done at my water baptism into Christ and into His death, burial, and resurrection.
I live anew because I "partook" of His being.
And I remember it every time I do communion.
Although interesting to think about, none of those questions or objections change the fact that if you do not eat His flesh and blood, you have no life in you.


Job 14:4 King James Version
Who can bring a CLEAN thing out of an UNCLEAN? Not one.

Post Reply