Dake Bible Discussion BoardPurpose of the law

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Spiritblade Disciple
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Re: Purpose of the law

Post by Spiritblade Disciple » Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:35 am

luchnia wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:46 am
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:29 pm
Some think that the reason so much time is given to Cornelius' conversion is account is to give us a more detailed insight into the normal process of salvation, rather than to show how exceptional it was.
I always appreciate the record given us of Cornelius experience. I like the fact this truly shows water baptism is not a requirement of salvation as Cornelius received the Spirit prior to water baptism and we know a child of devil does not receive the Spirit.
The record concerning Cornelius and his reception of the Gospel (with all that it entails) truly glorifies the grace of God.


Acts 10:42-43 King James Version
"And He commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is He which was ordained of God to be the Judge of Quick and Dead. To Him give all the Prophets witness, that through His Name WHOSEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM SHALL RECEIVE REMISSION OF SINS."

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Re: Purpose of the law

Post by TruthSeeker » Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:08 am

Hill Top wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:57 pm


I believe that at the granting of the gift of the Holy Ghost God enabled the gathered disciples the abilities inherent in rebirth. (Death of the flesh, affections, and lusts...Gal 5:24)
A few questions I have for clarification:

1- Do you consider being re-born and born again as the same thing?
2- If one is re-born what are you saying is their first birth?
3- Based on what you wrote above, are you saying one is not re-born unless he/she is baptized with the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues
?



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Re: Purpose of the law

Post by TruthSeeker » Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:14 am

luchnia wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:57 pm
TruthSeeker wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:06 pm
Some question came up to me as I was reading in Luke today. On what grounds were the disciples born again and spirit filled knowing that they did not even believe or understand that Jesus was going to die on the cross and rise again? For the scriptures says it was hidden from them when Jesus tried to explain it to them and they were afraid to ask him about it. Peter even rebuked Jesus one time when He mentioned it. If they did not understand or believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus, what allowed them to be born again and spirit filled?
I enjoy the thoughts you pose. Did they believe IN Jesus even though they did not understand His coming death and resurrection? Remember they did not understand it even at the very end. It seems odd they struggled with understanding so many things. I think their faith was constantly in question.

You are born from above - a new creation. Had that occurred before His death, as with OT believers the experience was based on the coming messiah. Did all those that believed know He would die, or was the requirement to believe in the coming Messiah?

Look at what Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3 about being born again. Jesus did not give Nicodemus much information on the born again experience because He questioned Nicodemus understanding of the matter and He did not even bring up His death and resurrection as a pre-req for being born again:


It seems odd to me that the disciples did not have revelation of His death and resurrection considering Psalm 22, Isaiah 53, and the scripture that says "You will not leave my soul in hell or let my body see destruction". Do you believe that part of their lack of revelation was not having the gift/promise of the Holy Spirit? Jesus wanted to tell them certain things but He knew they could not receive it.



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luchnia
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Re: Purpose of the law

Post by luchnia » Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:38 pm

TruthSeeker wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:14 am
It seems odd to me that the disciples did not have revelation of His death and resurrection considering Psalm 22, Isaiah 53, and the scripture that says "You will not leave my soul in hell or let my body see destruction". Do you believe that part of their lack of revelation was not having the gift/promise of the Holy Spirit? Jesus wanted to tell them certain things but He knew they could not receive it.
I don't recall the timeline of events. It could also be that they had the knowledge and did not recall it. It seemed to be in some of Jesus teachings that He had told them things that they somehow did not recall, or maybe recognize, or simply refused to accept.

I agree with you that it seems odd they did not know. It may be that they heard it, but did not receive it. You know Jesus would tell these guys things and they would be like, huh? Kind of like telling them, I told you, but you won't get it yet.

Remember when He told them about His death and when it became time they had trouble accepting that was what He was talking about? Also when He was talking about food from above and they were thinking He was talking about regular food?

I don't believe that spiritual birth gives one full light, especially after reading all the things that saints did that make you go, "WHAT!". I cannot imagine seeing what Jesus did and not accepting what He said.


Word up!

Hill Top
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Re: Purpose of the law

Post by Hill Top » Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:06 pm

luchnia wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:46 am
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:29 pm
Some think that the reason so much time is given to Cornelius' conversion is account is to give us a more detailed insight into the normal process of salvation, rather than to show how exceptional it was.
I always appreciate the record given us of Cornelius experience. I like the fact this truly shows water baptism is not a requirement of salvation as Cornelius received the Spirit prior to water baptism and we know a child of devil does not receive the Spirit.
Why then was he baptized?



Hill Top
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Re: Purpose of the law

Post by Hill Top » Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:07 pm

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:35 am
The record concerning Cornelius and his reception of the Gospel (with all that it entails) truly glorifies the grace of God.
Amen !



Hill Top
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Re: Purpose of the law

Post by Hill Top » Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:23 pm

TruthSeeker wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:08 am
A few questions I have for clarification:
1- Do you consider being re-born and born again as the same thing?

Yes, I do.

2- If one is re-born what are you saying is their first birth?

From their mom.

3- Based on what you wrote above, are you saying one is not re-born unless he/she is baptized with the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues?
No, I am saying that the first born old man is crucified, buried, and raised with Christ as a new creature, with Jesus Christ at water baptism. (Rom 6:3-6)(Col 2:10-13)
That is where rebirth occurs.
You gotta kill the first 'you' before a reborn 'you' can take it's place.

The gift of the Holy Ghost is given for a true repentance from sin. (Acts 2:38)
A man's "turn from" sin usually occurs before water baptism, but always before the baptism of the Holy Ghost



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Re: Purpose of the law

Post by TruthSeeker » Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:11 pm

Hill Top wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:23 pm

No, I am saying that the first born old man is crucified, buried, and raised with Christ as a new creature, with Jesus Christ at water baptism. (Rom 6:3-6)(Col 2:10-13)
That is where rebirth occurs.

If a person is in a hospital ready to die who has not been reborn and someone comes in and shares the gospel. That person according to Romans 10:9 confesses Jesus as their Lord and believes that God raised Him from the dead. That person's eternal destiny hinges on whether they can make it to the bath tub and be baptized before he takes his last breath?



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Re: Purpose of the law

Post by TruthSeeker » Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:20 pm

luchnia wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:38 pm
TruthSeeker wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:14 am
It seems odd to me that the disciples did not have revelation of His death and resurrection considering Psalm 22, Isaiah 53, and the scripture that says "You will not leave my soul in hell or let my body see destruction". Do you believe that part of their lack of revelation was not having the gift/promise of the Holy Spirit? Jesus wanted to tell them certain things but He knew they could not receive it.
I don't recall the timeline of events. It could also be that they had the knowledge and did not recall it. It seemed to be in some of Jesus teachings that He had told them things that they somehow did not recall, or maybe recognize, or simply refused to accept.

I agree with you that it seems odd they did not know. It may be that they heard it, but did not receive it. You know Jesus would tell these guys things and they would be like, huh? Kind of like telling them, I told you, but you won't get it yet.

Remember when He told them about His death and when it became time they had trouble accepting that was what He was talking about? Also when He was talking about food from above and they were thinking He was talking about regular food?

I don't believe that spiritual birth gives one full light, especially after reading all the things that saints did that make you go, "WHAT!". I cannot imagine seeing what Jesus did and not accepting what He said.
So in summary of this specific topic are you saying that the criteria for being born again spirit filled is/was different based on the dispensation and light received during that dispensation?



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luchnia
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Re: Purpose of the law

Post by luchnia » Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:29 pm

Hill Top wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:06 pm
luchnia wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:46 am
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:29 pm
Some think that the reason so much time is given to Cornelius' conversion is account is to give us a more detailed insight into the normal process of salvation, rather than to show how exceptional it was.
I always appreciate the record given us of Cornelius experience. I like the fact this truly shows water baptism is not a requirement of salvation as Cornelius received the Spirit prior to water baptism and we know a child of devil does not receive the Spirit.
Why then was he baptized?
Just as anyone gets baptized, as an outward form of obedience that shows an inward change.


Word up!

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