Dake Bible Discussion BoardPurpose of the law

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Hill Top
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Re: Purpose of the law

Post by Hill Top »

TruthSeeker wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:49 am
At what % of a person's life is he/she cut off from any chance of being reborn. 90% of them living and not repenting? How about 91%, 92%, 95%, etc. At what point does God say "That's it! They have passed the point of ever receiving any of my mercy?"
I believe that God's mercy is extended to a few moments before their they very last breath. Which would be impossible to be baptized at that point.

Then we "believe" differently.



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luchnia
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Re: Purpose of the law

Post by luchnia »

Hill Top wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:22 pm
luchnia wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:03 am
In my opinion, you are confusing baptisms. I fully believe in the importance of baptism - all of them, however a baptism in water saves no one. Being submerged in water has no saving power.
You are "wallowing" again.
You say you believe all the baptisms are important, then exclude water baptism.
Make up your mind!
What about the other baptisms? What are their relevance? What about the baptism in Christ, or the baptism in the Spirit? Are those null and only water baptism important to salvation? I have an assumption of your belief on this, yet figured this might be beneficial to others that read these posts.
Water baptism is our duty, and a commandment from Jesus. (Mark 16:16)
It is where are our sins are remitted, our old man crucified, buried, and raised with Christ, reborn with Christ to walk in newness of life.
It is how we are "immersed" into Christ.
It is where the flesh is crucified with the affections and lusts.
Without it, you are not washed of your past sins, made a man of the Spirit, freed from the flesh, or reborn.
Baptism in the Holy Spirit is God's gift to us for a true repentance from sin.
I have not once excluded water baptism. I stated that water baptism saves no one. There is a difference in those statements.

Water baptism does not remit sins as it does not have power to remit sins. Water baptism does not crucify, bury, or raise the flesh with Jesus. Water baptism does not make one new in Christ. Water baptism is powerless to do any of those things. Water baptism does not put off the old man and put on the new. It is water baptism, not spirit baptism, nor the baptism in Christ.

What is it that makes you think that being immersed in water would do any of those things? Did Jesus' water baptism crucify His flesh, remit His sins, and cause Him to walk in newness of life?


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Hill Top
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Re: Purpose of the law

Post by Hill Top »

luchnia wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:38 pm
I have not once excluded water baptism. I stated that water baptism saves no one. There is a difference in those statements.
You should reread your posts.
Water baptism does not remit sins as it does not have power to remit sins.
It is written..."Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38)
Water baptism does not crucify, bury, or raise the flesh with Jesus. Water baptism does not make one new in Christ. Water baptism is powerless to do any of those things. Water baptism does not put off the old man and put on the new.
It is water baptism, not spirit baptism, nor the baptism in Christ.
It is written..." Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." (Rom 6:3-6)
Again you refute yourself with the last line.
What is it that makes you think that being immersed in water would do any of those things? Did Jesus' water baptism crucify His flesh, remit His sins, and cause Him to walk in newness of life?
The bible makes me KNOW these things.
In fact, the proof of these things happening at water baptism is written in verse 7 of Romans 6..."For he that is dead is freed from sin."
I am free from sin because of the miracles inherent in water baptism.

Jesus had no sin to remit.
Our partaking in His death, burial, and resurrection allows our death, burial and resurrection with Christ.
It is the only way to be "freed from sin".



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luchnia
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Re: Purpose of the law

Post by luchnia »

Hill Top wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:51 pm
Water baptism does not remit sins as it does not have power to remit sins.
It is written..."Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38)

I am free from sin because of the miracles inherent in water baptism.
Start with the verse you have posted and consider this. Is water baptism for remission of sins that you have previously remitted, or does physical water remit sins? There is no miracle in water baptism. If that were the case, it would be all that one needs for removing sin.

When one repents and forsakes sin, they are forgiven Read 1 Jn 1:9, Rom 10:9-10. After this event occurs one can be water baptized to show the symbol of death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. Read 1 Pet 3:21 and you will see a water immersion does not remit your sins. Water baptism shows that you have repented, not that you will repent, or that water will remit your sin.

What changed the men in Acts 2:37 that caused them to ask the question they did? Where their hearts pierced by the word spoken to them? Did water do that? Peter had the exact answer for those men. REPENT and be BAPTIZED. Sins are remitted at true repentance of the heart. Water baptism is because you have remitted sins, not to remit sins. Pay close attention to verse 41 at the words "gladly received his word" and then what? Yes, they were baptized.

One is saved by grace through faith. It is by the gospel that men are saved, not water. We declare our sins remitted through the forbearance of God, not water. Jesus redeemed us. He is our propitiation through faith in His blood, not water. Read these verses Eph 2:8-9; Rom 1:16; 3:24-25; 5:1 for more information.

Again, you absolutely should be baptized if at all possible. Don't imply that I exclude that. Being baptized in water does not change the fact that water is powerless to remit sins. Maybe you should see a man repent and be saved where there is no water for him to be baptized in and watch him as he is cleaned and made whole. Sins are only remitted through repentance and the forsaken of sin by faith in Jesus Christ.


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Hill Top
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Re: Purpose of the law

Post by Hill Top »

:evilbat:
luchnia wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:56 am
"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38)

Start with the verse you have posted, ("Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38)), and consider this. Is water baptism for remission of sins that you have previously remitted,
My sins could not be remitted before water baptism.
or does physical water remit sins? There is no miracle in water baptism. If that were the case, it would be all that one needs for removing sin.
The water is the blood of Christ.
It is written..."And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." (1 John 5:8)
When one repents and forsakes sin, they are forgiven Read 1 Jn 1:9, Rom 10:9-10.
I see no mention of repentance in 1 John 1:9.
Our confession of sins is done AT our baptism in water.
It is written..."And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins." (Matt 3:6)
And..."And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins." (Mark 1:5)
After this event occurs one can be water baptized to show the symbol of death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus.
To you baptism into Christ's death in only a symbol; but to me it is an actual event.
Read 1 Pet 3:21, "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:", and you will see a water immersion does not remit your sins. Water baptism shows that you have repented, not that you will repent, or that water will remit your sin.
Just because it isn't mentioned, doesn't mean it isn't inferred.
Let's read 1 Peter 3:21 without the parenthesis part..."The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us... by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
If baptism isn't necessary for a clean conscience toward God, then neither is the resurrection of Christ.
You continue to deny the very verse you quote.
Did the ark save Noah and his family?
Yes.
The like figure also saves us now.
What changed the men in Acts 2:37 that caused them to ask the question they did? Where their hearts pierced by the word spoken to them? Did water do that? Peter had the exact answer for those men. REPENT and be BAPTIZED. Sins are remitted at true repentance of the heart. Water baptism is because you have remitted sins, not to remit sins. Pay close attention to verse 41 at the words "gladly received his word" and then what? Yes, they were baptized.
You chopped off the important part in the next verse, but I can understand as it destroys your POV.
It is written..."Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
One is saved by grace through faith. It is by the gospel that men are saved, not water. We declare our sins remitted through the forbearance of God, not water. Jesus redeemed us. He is our propitiation through faith in His blood, not water. Read these verses Eph 2:8-9; Rom 1:16; 3:24-25; 5:1 for more information.
I sure am glad that I had faith in water baptism.
Again, you absolutely should be baptized if at all possible. Don't imply that I exclude that. Being baptized in water does not change the fact that water is powerless to remit sins. Maybe you should see a man repent and be saved where there is no water for him to be baptized in and watch him as he is cleaned and made whole. Sins are only remitted through repentance and the forsaken of sin by faith in Jesus Christ.
Wasn't water supplied for the Ethiopian eunuch?
God will not abandon the repentant for lack of water.
He created water so can put it wherever it is needed.

Your POV ignores Col 2:10-13..."And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;"
These verses correlate perfectly with Rom 6:3-6 in their description of the effects of water baptism.
They didn't mention "showing everybody you believe" at all



Hill Top
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Re: Purpose of the law

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luchnia wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 6:42 am
Interesting that you believe water remits sins but don't believe that bread and wine are the body and blood of Jesus and yet Jesus said they were. You use a different rule for one doctrine than you do for the other.
I don't believe water remits sin.
I believe that baptism in water remits sin...as the water and blood "agree in one".
One might ask if blood is water or wine because of what the scripture shows, but you maintain that blood is water thus one can see why in your view why wine would not be blood.
I see no mention of wine in 1 John 5:8.

As long as we are trying to determine if wine and bread are the Lord's blood and body, is all bread the Lord's body?
Whole wheat, white, sour dough, and rye are all the same?
Is only unleavened bread the Lord's body?
Is it only red wine that is the Lord's blood?
Are they transfigured by some special prayer, or is all the bread on the bread shelf at the store the Lord's body??
This borders on the catholic teachings of transfiguration.
What makes them the Lord's body and blood?

As much as you are trying to convince me that some special sort of wine is the Lord's blood, why do you have so much trouble believing the waters of baptism are the Lord's blood?



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macca
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Re: Purpose of the law

Post by macca »

Again confusion reigns because of arguments over words.
Jesus was talking to Jews who were not born-again who had a mental knowledge of the Law and the Prophets.
He concluded His teaching with these words '''It is the Spirit that gives life, the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak to you are Spirit and they are life'''''

Then Peter confirms Jesus's statement with his answer to the question, ''will you also go away?'''
Peter: Lord, to whom shall we go? You have THE WORDS OF ETERNAL LIFE'''''''''''''

We eat Jesus's flesh and drink His blood by listening and receiving the Words of Jesus.....The Word of God is Jesus.

macca



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luchnia
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Re: Purpose of the law

Post by luchnia »

macca wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:15 am
Again confusion reigns because of arguments over words.
Thanks for the post. I think some is about words, yet also I think much of it is not understanding nor agreeing on God's word. I think this is how these threads get sideways. I do believe we know few will agree and especially when dealing with topics like this one. I have known a number of people over the years that do not understand water baptism, nor the other baptisms for the believer for that matter. People rather hold to bias than seek out a matter before God.

Consider when one places a standard of interpretation on one term, but does not place the same standard on another term what the end results are. In this case "water baptism" is placed in one miraculous light and then "blood and body" to mean something else entirely.

It is a double-standard and seems that was what we were pointing out. These double-standards will not end up with an accurate understanding of the things in God's word and will always end up in confusion. This instance is not unusual at all, we see this all the time and so often, the individual fails to see this.

At least it keeps us challenged and we can continue to sharpen each other as long as we are pressed against the metal. :angel:


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luchnia
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Re: Purpose of the law

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Hill Top wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:17 pm
...and everything consists of Jesus Christ.
I think this belief is part of the pantheism and new age religion and maybe some others as well. Shirley MacClaine believed that everything consists of god or similar and also I think she was into reincarnation and other obscure beliefs because of it.

She, among many others, are good examples of misunderstanding and misguided knowledge about a few verses in Colosians. Hopefully you don't believe this way.


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Hill Top
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Re: Purpose of the law

Post by Hill Top »

macca wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:15 am
Again confusion reigns because of arguments over words.
Jesus was talking to Jews who were not born-again who had a mental knowledge of the Law and the Prophets.
He concluded His teaching with these words '''It is the Spirit that gives life, the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak to you are Spirit and they are life'''''
Then Peter confirms Jesus's statement with his answer to the question, ''will you also go away?'''
Peter: Lord, to whom shall we go? You have THE WORDS OF ETERNAL LIFE'''''''''''''
We eat Jesus's flesh and drink His blood by listening and receiving the Words of Jesus.....The Word of God is Jesus.
Hi, Macca.
I don't think it is a matter of words so much as differing perspectives.
The bible says Jesus called the bread and wine His body and blood.
I don't dispute that, and in fact do believe it.
But as you point out, from John 6, we eat, partake of, live by, the words of Christ.
In addition, (back to water baptism), we live OF Christ, as we are raised from the dead, with Christ, to "walk in newness of life".(Rom 6:4)
Without that opportunity, we would all still be dead in trespasses and sins.



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