Dake Bible Discussion BoardPurpose of the law

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TruthSeeker
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Re: Purpose of the law

Post by TruthSeeker »

luchnia wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:18 pm
TruthSeeker wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:30 pm
luchnia wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:56 pm
TruthSeeker wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:07 am
My local pastor/church believes that those in the O.T. were not born again/spirit filled and Dake believed they were.
This morning I was reading in Galatians 3:19 that the law was added because of transgressions till the seed should come who was Christ.
Why did those in the O.T. before Christ need a law because of transgression if they were born again/spirit filled and those in the N.T. do not?
Good post.

Why would being born again exempt one from the law and why wouldn't OT believers not be born of the Spirit as they are today? There is really nothing different in that aspect whether the old law is enforced or not. Jesus said that if a man not be born of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Jesus did not isolate that statement to a certain time frame.

I am not sure I fully understand the point, yet it may be that using the old (mosaic) law in this context is only problematic to understanding the born again experience in the old testament times.
Galatians 3:8-9 says that the gospel was preached to Abraham and those that believe are blessed with him. So if those in the O.T. that believed the gospel had righteousness imputed to them, what was the purpose of the law for them compared to us now? For in 1 Tim 1:9 it says the law is not made for the righteous. Was the law in the O.T. just for those who did not believe the gospel (Heb. 4:2) or were they not made righteous/born again like we are now although Dake believed they were?
Well as you put it earlier post, the law was for transgressors. I do believe much as Dake did on this issue. I am glad you put the note in about Abraham, because as it reminds me that Abraham was a long time before the mosaic law.
Some question came up to me as I was reading in Luke today. On what grounds were the disciples born again and spirit filled knowing that they did not even believe or understand that Jesus was going to die on the cross and rise again? For the scriptures says it was hidden from them when Jesus tried to explain it to them and they were afraid to ask him about it. Peter even rebuked Jesus one time when He mentioned it. If they did not understand or believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus, what allowed them to be born again and spirit filled?



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luchnia
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Re: Purpose of the law

Post by luchnia »

TruthSeeker wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:06 pm
Some question came up to me as I was reading in Luke today. On what grounds were the disciples born again and spirit filled knowing that they did not even believe or understand that Jesus was going to die on the cross and rise again? For the scriptures says it was hidden from them when Jesus tried to explain it to them and they were afraid to ask him about it. Peter even rebuked Jesus one time when He mentioned it. If they did not understand or believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus, what allowed them to be born again and spirit filled?
I enjoy the thoughts you pose. Did they believe IN Jesus even though they did not understand His coming death and resurrection? Remember they did not understand it even at the very end. It seems odd they struggled with understanding so many things. I think their faith was constantly in question.

You are born from above - a new creation. Had that occurred before His death, as with OT believers the experience was based on the coming messiah. Did all those that believed know He would die, or was the requirement to believe in the coming Messiah?

Look at what Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3 about being born again. Jesus did not give Nicodemus much information on the born again experience because He questioned Nicodemus understanding of the matter and He did not even bring up His death and resurrection as a pre-req for being born again:

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.


Word up!

TruthSeeker
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Re: Purpose of the law

Post by TruthSeeker »

luchnia wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:57 pm
TruthSeeker wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:06 pm
Some question came up to me as I was reading in Luke today. On what grounds were the disciples born again and spirit filled knowing that they did not even believe or understand that Jesus was going to die on the cross and rise again? For the scriptures says it was hidden from them when Jesus tried to explain it to them and they were afraid to ask him about it. Peter even rebuked Jesus one time when He mentioned it. If they did not understand or believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus, what allowed them to be born again and spirit filled?
I enjoy the thoughts you pose. Did they believe IN Jesus even though they did not understand His coming death and resurrection? Remember they did not understand it even at the very end. It seems odd they struggled with understanding so many things. I think their faith was constantly in question.

You are born from above - a new creation. Had that occurred before His death, as with OT believers the experience was based on the coming messiah. Did all those that believed know He would die, or was the requirement to believe in the coming Messiah?

Look at what Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3 about being born again. Jesus did not give Nicodemus much information on the born again experience because He questioned Nicodemus understanding of the matter and He did not even bring up His death and resurrection as a pre-req for being born again:

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Thank you and I appreciate your willingness to answer my questions. I have a great deal of respect for Dake's teachings but some topics go against what I have been taught.



Hill Top
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Re: Purpose of the law

Post by Hill Top »

TruthSeeker wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:06 pm
Some question came up to me as I was reading in Luke today.
On what grounds were the disciples born again and spirit filled knowing that they did not even believe or understand that Jesus was going to die on the cross and rise again?

They weren't.
They didn't receive the Holy Ghost until the day of Pentecost, forty days after Jesus' resurrection.
Their rebirth is a good question though.
As it isn't written that any apostle was rebaptized, (this time in the name of Jesus Christ), thereby killing the old man so a new creature could be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life, (Rom 6:3-7), I believe that at the granting of the gift of the Holy Ghost God enabled the gathered disciples the abilities inherent in rebirth. (Death of the flesh, affections, and lusts...Gal 5:24)
In 1 John 5:8. it says..."And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."
The Spirit, water, and blood of Christ are all one thing. So the effects thereof are indistinguishable in the eyes of God.
This doesn't relieve us of our duty to be baptized in Jesus' name for the remission of sins, but rather may have been a one of a kind situation, like Cornelius' reception of the Spirit before his baptism.

God is amazing !!



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luchnia
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Re: Purpose of the law

Post by luchnia »

TruthSeeker wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:18 pm
Thank you and I appreciate your willingness to answer my questions. I have a great deal of respect for Dake's teachings but some topics go against what I have been taught.
I am the same way about Dake's teachings and sometimes I think many biblical text he used where not always dealing with the subject at hand and wonder why he thought some references fit. All that aside, I think compared to all the other resources I have, Dake is the best I have ever used.


Word up!

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macca
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Re: Purpose of the law

Post by macca »

So now we have Jesus only on top of the dead know nothing!!!
If the dead know nothing then Jesus knew nothing while His body was in the grave 3 days and 3 nights.
Jesus being God makes a mockery of your theory.



Hill Top
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Re: Purpose of the law

Post by Hill Top »

macca wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:27 am
So now we have Jesus only on top of the dead know nothing!!!
If the dead know nothing then Jesus knew nothing while His body was in the grave 3 days and 3 nights.
Jesus being God makes a mockery of your theory.
What is this relevant to?



TruthSeeker
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Re: Purpose of the law

Post by TruthSeeker »

Hill Top wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:57 pm


I believe that at the granting of the gift of the Holy Ghost God enabled the gathered disciples the abilities inherent in rebirth. (Death of the flesh, affections, and lusts...Gal 5:24)
A few questions I have for clarification:

1- Do you consider being re-born and born again as the same thing?
2- If one is re-born what are you saying is their first birth?
3- Based on what you wrote above, are you saying one is not re-born unless he/she is baptized with the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues
?



TruthSeeker
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Re: Purpose of the law

Post by TruthSeeker »

luchnia wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:57 pm
TruthSeeker wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:06 pm
Some question came up to me as I was reading in Luke today. On what grounds were the disciples born again and spirit filled knowing that they did not even believe or understand that Jesus was going to die on the cross and rise again? For the scriptures says it was hidden from them when Jesus tried to explain it to them and they were afraid to ask him about it. Peter even rebuked Jesus one time when He mentioned it. If they did not understand or believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus, what allowed them to be born again and spirit filled?
I enjoy the thoughts you pose. Did they believe IN Jesus even though they did not understand His coming death and resurrection? Remember they did not understand it even at the very end. It seems odd they struggled with understanding so many things. I think their faith was constantly in question.

You are born from above - a new creation. Had that occurred before His death, as with OT believers the experience was based on the coming messiah. Did all those that believed know He would die, or was the requirement to believe in the coming Messiah?

Look at what Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3 about being born again. Jesus did not give Nicodemus much information on the born again experience because He questioned Nicodemus understanding of the matter and He did not even bring up His death and resurrection as a pre-req for being born again:


It seems odd to me that the disciples did not have revelation of His death and resurrection considering Psalm 22, Isaiah 53, and the scripture that says "You will not leave my soul in hell or let my body see destruction". Do you believe that part of their lack of revelation was not having the gift/promise of the Holy Spirit? Jesus wanted to tell them certain things but He knew they could not receive it.



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luchnia
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Re: Purpose of the law

Post by luchnia »

TruthSeeker wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:14 am
It seems odd to me that the disciples did not have revelation of His death and resurrection considering Psalm 22, Isaiah 53, and the scripture that says "You will not leave my soul in hell or let my body see destruction". Do you believe that part of their lack of revelation was not having the gift/promise of the Holy Spirit? Jesus wanted to tell them certain things but He knew they could not receive it.
I don't recall the timeline of events. It could also be that they had the knowledge and did not recall it. It seemed to be in some of Jesus teachings that He had told them things that they somehow did not recall, or maybe recognize, or simply refused to accept.

I agree with you that it seems odd they did not know. It may be that they heard it, but did not receive it. You know Jesus would tell these guys things and they would be like, huh? Kind of like telling them, I told you, but you won't get it yet.

Remember when He told them about His death and when it became time they had trouble accepting that was what He was talking about? Also when He was talking about food from above and they were thinking He was talking about regular food?

I don't believe that spiritual birth gives one full light, especially after reading all the things that saints did that make you go, "WHAT!". I cannot imagine seeing what Jesus did and not accepting what He said.


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