Dake Bible Discussion BoardPurpose of the law

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Hill Top
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Re: Purpose of the law

Post by Hill Top »

TruthSeeker wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:26 am
You make it seem that those in the O.T. were so wicked that they had no possible way of obeying God's commands because they were wicked to the core. Why did God allow them to be punished time and time again if they had no ability to obey Him. That seems unjust to me.
I don't know why you think that.
I never mentioned the degree of wickedness of OT people.
Fact is, they are just as wicked in the NT.
The Law was given so we-they could quantify good v. bad behavior.
It was because they walked as men of the flesh that they committed sin: same as today's sinners.
We, however, have been given the opportunity to kill the old man of the flesh and be reborn as men walking in the Spirit.
The OT folks didn't have that opportunity, till after Jesus was raised from the dead.
David wrote in Psalms 119:11 "Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee." How could one that is so wicked do that?
He didn't do "that" when he had Bathsheba's husband, Uriah, killed, did he?
David was a man of the flesh, as are all men till they "turn from" sin and get baptized in Jesus' name for the remission of past sins, crucifying the old man, burying him, and being raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-7)
"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Rom 8:1)



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luchnia
Shall Not He that Spared Not His Own Son Freely Give Us All Things?
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Re: Purpose of the law

Post by luchnia »

TruthSeeker wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:52 am
luchnia wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:18 pm
TruthSeeker wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:30 pm
luchnia wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:56 pm
TruthSeeker wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:07 am
My local pastor/church believes that those in the O.T. were not born again/spirit filled and Dake believed they were.
This morning I was reading in Galatians 3:19 that the law was added because of transgressions till the seed should come who was Christ.
Why did those in the O.T. before Christ need a law because of transgression if they were born again/spirit filled and those in the N.T. do not?
Good post.

Why would being born again exempt one from the law and why wouldn't OT believers not be born of the Spirit as they are today? There is really nothing different in that aspect whether the old law is enforced or not. Jesus said that if a man not be born of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Jesus did not isolate that statement to a certain time frame.

I am not sure I fully understand the point, yet it may be that using the old (mosaic) law in this context is only problematic to understanding the born again experience in the old testament times.
Galatians 3:8-9 says that the gospel was preached to Abraham and those that believe are blessed with him. So if those in the O.T. that believed the gospel had righteousness imputed to them, what was the purpose of the law for them compared to us now? For in 1 Tim 1:9 it says the law is not made for the righteous. Was the law in the O.T. just for those who did not believe the gospel (Heb. 4:2) or were they not made righteous/born again like we are now although Dake believed they were?
Well as you put it earlier post, the law was for transgressors. I do believe much as Dake did on this issue. I am glad you put the note in about Abraham, because as it reminds me that Abraham was a long time before the mosaic law.
Just wandering why if the law is not made for a righteous man (1 Tim. 1:9) why did God demand they obey the law in the O.T. if they were already born again and made righteous?
I would state it was because the law was righteous, just, and good so the law is for lawless. The righteous saints of old walked upright and were already in obedience to the law in the sense that they walked upright. There has to be some guidelines or there are no standards. The penalty of the law was for justice against transgressors. There were many things the law could not do, such as save a man.

The mosaic law was to govern Israel until the Messiah came and it was prophesied until John. The law brought men to a knowledge of sin. For the time it leveled the playing field. The law was a schoolmaster and a shadow of good things to come. The law had great purpose. Men were free from the penalty of the law as long as the lived holy and free from sin. If they went back into sin they were under the penalty of the law as transgressors.

There has always been law or rule. Adam had eternal life based upon a set of conditions just like men do today. Sin was and is the culprit of separation from God, just as it is today. If Adam had of remained in union with God and not had chosen sin, he would have not fallen. Many from the beginning whom had eternal life have suffered eternal separation from God ending in eternal death. Many transgressed against God and many more will - Exod 32:30-35; Isaiah 66:22-24;, Rev 14:9-12; 19:20, 20:10-15, 21:8, etc.


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TruthSeeker
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Re: Purpose of the law

Post by TruthSeeker »

luchnia wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:26 pm
TruthSeeker wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:52 am
luchnia wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:18 pm
TruthSeeker wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:30 pm
luchnia wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:56 pm
TruthSeeker wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:07 am
My local pastor/church believes that those in the O.T. were not born again/spirit filled and Dake believed they were.
This morning I was reading in Galatians 3:19 that the law was added because of transgressions till the seed should come who was Christ.
Why did those in the O.T. before Christ need a law because of transgression if they were born again/spirit filled and those in the N.T. do not?
Good post.

Why would being born again exempt one from the law and why wouldn't OT believers not be born of the Spirit as they are today? There is really nothing different in that aspect whether the old law is enforced or not. Jesus said that if a man not be born of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Jesus did not isolate that statement to a certain time frame.

I am not sure I fully understand the point, yet it may be that using the old (mosaic) law in this context is only problematic to understanding the born again experience in the old testament times.
Galatians 3:8-9 says that the gospel was preached to Abraham and those that believe are blessed with him. So if those in the O.T. that believed the gospel had righteousness imputed to them, what was the purpose of the law for them compared to us now? For in 1 Tim 1:9 it says the law is not made for the righteous. Was the law in the O.T. just for those who did not believe the gospel (Heb. 4:2) or were they not made righteous/born again like we are now although Dake believed they were?
Well as you put it earlier post, the law was for transgressors. I do believe much as Dake did on this issue. I am glad you put the note in about Abraham, because as it reminds me that Abraham was a long time before the mosaic law.
Just wandering why if the law is not made for a righteous man (1 Tim. 1:9) why did God demand they obey the law in the O.T. if they were already born again and made righteous?
I would state it was because the law was righteous, just, and good so the law is for lawless. The righteous saints of old walked upright and were already in obedience to the law in the sense that they walked upright. There has to be some guidelines or there are no standards. The penalty of the law was for justice against transgressors. There were many things the law could not do, such as save a man.

The mosaic law was to govern Israel until the Messiah came and it was prophesied until John. The law brought men to a knowledge of sin. For the time it leveled the playing field. The law was a schoolmaster and a shadow of good things to come. The law had great purpose. Men were free from the penalty of the law as long as the lived holy and free from sin. If they went back into sin they were under the penalty of the law as transgressors.

There has always been law or rule. Adam had eternal life based upon a set of conditions just like men do today. Sin was and is the culprit of separation from God, just as it is today. If Adam had of remained in union with God and not had chosen sin, he would have not fallen. Many from the beginning whom had eternal life have suffered eternal separation from God ending in eternal death. Many transgressed against God and many more will - Exod 32:30-35; Isaiah 66:22-24;, Rev 14:9-12; 19:20, 20:10-15, 21:8, etc.
That was really good. Thanks for that response.



Hill Top
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Re: Purpose of the law

Post by Hill Top »

TruthSeeker wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:47 pm
Just wandering why if the law is not made for a righteous man (1 Tim. 1:9) why did God demand they obey the law in the O.T. if they were already born again and made righteous?
The righteous saints of old walked upright and were already in obedience to the law in the sense that they walked upright.
Were that true, they wouldn't need Jesus.
They would have made themselves righteous.



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luchnia
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Re: Purpose of the law

Post by luchnia »

Hill Top wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:26 pm
TruthSeeker wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:47 pm
Just wandering why if the law is not made for a righteous man (1 Tim. 1:9) why did God demand they obey the law in the O.T. if they were already born again and made righteous?
The righteous saints of old walked upright and were already in obedience to the law in the sense that they walked upright.
Were that true, they wouldn't need Jesus.
They would have made themselves righteous.
What about Abraham, Moses, Enoch, Daniel, Elijah, Elisha, John the Baptist, and so on? How were these men righteous, or were they doomed to eternal torments without God? What made them righteous? How is any man made righteous before Jesus died and rose again?

You imply they were not righteous nor obedient when the Scripture is clear about their righteousness and their obedience. With the view you hold men like Abraham, Moses, Enoch, Daniel, Elijah, and Elisha were not saved. Enoch believed to the point that he was translated and yet you place unrighteousness upon him. How does that work.

Here is a question for you. How was Abraham righteous 430 years before the law? How could he be obedient? What made him righteous, or was he unsaved man doomed to eternal torments and died that way without Jesus?


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TruthSeeker
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Re: Purpose of the law

Post by TruthSeeker »

Hill Top wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:26 pm
TruthSeeker wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:47 pm
Just wandering why if the law is not made for a righteous man (1 Tim. 1:9) why did God demand they obey the law in the O.T. if they were already born again and made righteous?
The righteous saints of old walked upright and were already in obedience to the law in the sense that they walked upright.
Were that true, they wouldn't need Jesus.
They would have made themselves righteous.
This is my understanding from reading Dake's material. (If anyone who has read Dake's material believes otherwise, please correct me)

Those in the O.T. were imputed with righteousness by looking to the cross and believed as Abraham did (James 2:23) and those now look back to the cross and are imputed with righteousness as Abraham was. (Romans 4:22-24)

Even those before Abraham were aware of a coming redeemer. The revelation first came to Adam and Eve after the fall.

Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world. Rev. 13:8

However,Jesus still needed to come and fulfill scripture.



Hill Top
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Re: Purpose of the law

Post by Hill Top »

luchnia wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:21 am
What about Abraham, Moses, Enoch, Daniel, Elijah, Elisha, John the Baptist, and so on? How were these men righteous, or were they doomed to eternal torments without God? What made them righteous? How is any man made righteous before Jesus died and rose again?
Those before the Mosaic Law had nothing to fear, for without the law there is no sin. (Rom 5:13)
After the Law came, they all had days of atonement by which they could claim righteousness. Even if only temporarily.
You imply they were not righteous nor obedient when the Scripture is clear about their righteousness and their obedience. With the view you hold men like Abraham, Moses, Enoch, Daniel, Elijah, and Elisha were not saved. Enoch believed to the point that he was translated and yet you place unrighteousness upon him. How does that work.
Paul wrote..."I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." (Gal 2:21)
In Hebrews we see..."For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God." (Heb 7:19)
Also in Hebrews we see..."For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect." (Heb 10:1)
Here is a question for you. How was Abraham righteous 430 years before the law? How could he be obedient? What made him righteous, or was he unsaved man doomed to eternal torments and died that way without Jesus?
He had faith, and his "faith was counted for righteousness". (Rom 4:3)
He believed God would honor His promise.



Hill Top
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Re: Purpose of the law

Post by Hill Top »

TruthSeeker wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:58 am
This is my understanding from reading Dake's material. (If anyone who has read Dake's material believes otherwise, please correct me)
Those in the O.T. were imputed with righteousness by looking to the cross and believed as Abraham did (James 2:23) and those now look back to the cross and are imputed with righteousness as Abraham was. (Romans 4:22-24)

Even those before Abraham were aware of a coming redeemer. The revelation first came to Adam and Eve after the fall.

Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world. Rev. 13:8
However,Jesus still needed to come and fulfill scripture.
Though I can't recall Abraham ever being given a "view' of a cross, I do know he was promised a son, and through that son a great nation, "as the sands of the sea", would be born of him.
Abraham believed God.
His belief was counted for righteousness.

Perhaps you could show the verses that showed Adam had a revelation of a Redeemer to come?



TruthSeeker
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Re: Purpose of the law

Post by TruthSeeker »

Hill Top wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:47 pm
TruthSeeker wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:58 am
This is my understanding from reading Dake's material. (If anyone who has read Dake's material believes otherwise, please correct me)
Those in the O.T. were imputed with righteousness by looking to the cross and believed as Abraham did (James 2:23) and those now look back to the cross and are imputed with righteousness as Abraham was. (Romans 4:22-24)

Even those before Abraham were aware of a coming redeemer. The revelation first came to Adam and Eve after the fall.

Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world. Rev. 13:8
However,Jesus still needed to come and fulfill scripture.
Though I can't recall Abraham ever being given a "view' of a cross, I do know he was promised a son, and through that son a great nation, "as the sands of the sea", would be born of him.
Abraham believed God.
His belief was counted for righteousness.

I believe Abraham's imputed righteousness was more than just believing for a son in his old age and offering Isaac as a sacrifice. In Galatians 3:8-9 it states he had the gospel preached unto him and Jesus said that Abraham rejoiced to see his day: and he saw it, and was glad. John 8:56

Abraham is our father of faith because of those beliefs and we are his children if we believe.


Perhaps you could show the verses that showed Adam had a revelation of a Redeemer to come?

In Dakes God's Plan for Man p.163 he gives a good explanation for Adam's provision of redemption after the fall. Main points are:
1) Prophecy of Gen. 3:15
2) Demonstrated in type by the shedding of the blood of animals and the clothing of him with the skin of animals. That with out shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. This theme is carried out throughout O.T.



Hill Top
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Re: Purpose of the law

Post by Hill Top »

TruthSeeker wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:13 am
Perhaps you could show the verses that showed Adam had a revelation of a Redeemer to come?
In Dakes God's Plan for Man p.163 he gives a good explanation for Adam's provision of redemption after the fall. Main points are:
1) Prophecy of Gen. 3:15
2) Demonstrated in type by the shedding of the blood of animals and the clothing of him with the skin of animals. That with out shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. This theme is carried out throughout O.T.
I see no connection between the first point and the second...(or if there was supposed to be one).
Blood is never mentioned in the words of Gen 3:21.

For what would Abraham require "redemption"?
There was no law yet.

I think what Abraham had faith in was written of in Gen 17:1-9..."And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations."



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