Dake Bible Discussion BoardPurpose of the law

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Hill Top
Repent and Be Baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ Because of the Remission of Sins
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Re: Purpose of the law

Post by Hill Top »

TruthSeeker wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:08 am
A few questions I have for clarification:
1- Do you consider being re-born and born again as the same thing?

Yes, I do.

2- If one is re-born what are you saying is their first birth?

From their mom.

3- Based on what you wrote above, are you saying one is not re-born unless he/she is baptized with the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues?
No, I am saying that the first born old man is crucified, buried, and raised with Christ as a new creature, with Jesus Christ at water baptism. (Rom 6:3-6)(Col 2:10-13)
That is where rebirth occurs.
You gotta kill the first 'you' before a reborn 'you' can take it's place.

The gift of the Holy Ghost is given for a true repentance from sin. (Acts 2:38)
A man's "turn from" sin usually occurs before water baptism, but always before the baptism of the Holy Ghost



TruthSeeker
Malachi
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Re: Purpose of the law

Post by TruthSeeker »

[quote="Hill Top" post_id=97472 time=1543429393 user_id=18894]

No, I am saying that the first born old man is crucified, buried, and raised with Christ as a new creature, with Jesus Christ at water baptism. (Rom 6:3-6)(Col 2:10-13)
That is where rebirth occurs.

If a person is in a hospital ready to die who has not been reborn and someone comes in and shares the gospel. That person according to Romans 10:9 confesses Jesus as their Lord and believes that God raised Him from the dead. That person's eternal destiny hinges on whether they can make it to the bath tub and be baptized before he takes his last breath?



TruthSeeker
Malachi
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Re: Purpose of the law

Post by TruthSeeker »

luchnia wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:38 pm
TruthSeeker wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:14 am
It seems odd to me that the disciples did not have revelation of His death and resurrection considering Psalm 22, Isaiah 53, and the scripture that says "You will not leave my soul in hell or let my body see destruction". Do you believe that part of their lack of revelation was not having the gift/promise of the Holy Spirit? Jesus wanted to tell them certain things but He knew they could not receive it.
I don't recall the timeline of events. It could also be that they had the knowledge and did not recall it. It seemed to be in some of Jesus teachings that He had told them things that they somehow did not recall, or maybe recognize, or simply refused to accept.

I agree with you that it seems odd they did not know. It may be that they heard it, but did not receive it. You know Jesus would tell these guys things and they would be like, huh? Kind of like telling them, I told you, but you won't get it yet.

Remember when He told them about His death and when it became time they had trouble accepting that was what He was talking about? Also when He was talking about food from above and they were thinking He was talking about regular food?

I don't believe that spiritual birth gives one full light, especially after reading all the things that saints did that make you go, "WHAT!". I cannot imagine seeing what Jesus did and not accepting what He said.
So in summary of this specific topic are you saying that the criteria for being born again spirit filled is/was different based on the dispensation and light received during that dispensation?



Hill Top
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Re: Purpose of the law

Post by Hill Top »

TruthSeeker wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:11 pm
If a person is in a hospital ready to die who has not been reborn and someone comes in and shares the gospel. That person according to Romans 10:9 confesses Jesus as their Lord and believes that God raised Him from the dead. That person's eternal destiny hinges on whether they can make it to the bath tub and be baptized before he takes his last breath?

Your understanding of Rom 10:9 is different than mine.
The reason to believe Jesus was raised from the dead is so that we can be raised with Him...at water baptism.
It is written..."Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:" (Rom 6:8)
If the hospitalized man, in his "body of sin", doesn't die with Christ, he won't live with Him either.
That man had an entire lifetime to convert. He has had enough time to choose whom he will serve.



Hill Top
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Re: Purpose of the law

Post by Hill Top »

luchnia wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:29 pm
Just as anyone gets baptized, as an outward form of obedience that shows an inward change.
Show me that from the bible.
As you don't believe in the importance of baptism, I guess you don't believe it is really a sign of inward change either.
Why dispense with one command of Jesus Christ to enact another non-Jesus commandment?

BTW, I was baptized in water for the remission of past sins. (Acts 2:38)
I was baptized to gain "the answer of a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:" (1 Peter 3:21)
I was baptized to kill the old man of the flesh, to bury him, and to be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-6)
Reborn...with Jesus.
I was baptized to "crucify the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)



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luchnia
Shall Not He that Spared Not His Own Son Freely Give Us All Things?
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Re: Purpose of the law

Post by luchnia »

Hill Top wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:58 pm
luchnia wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:29 pm
Just as anyone gets baptized, as an outward form of obedience that shows an inward change.
Show me that from the bible.
As you don't believe in the importance of baptism, I guess you don't believe it is really a sign of inward change either.
Why dispense with one command of Jesus Christ to enact another non-Jesus commandment?

BTW, I was baptized in water for the remission of past sins. (Acts 2:38)
I was baptized to gain "the answer of a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:" (1 Peter 3:21)
I was baptized to kill the old man of the flesh, to bury him, and to be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-6)
Reborn...with Jesus.
I was baptized to "crucify the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
In my opinion, you are confusing baptisms. I fully believe in the importance of baptism - all of them, however a baptism in water saves no one. Being submerged in water has no saving power.

What about the other baptisms? What are their relevance? What about the baptism in Christ, or the baptism in the Spirit? Are those null and only water baptism important to salvation? I have an assumption of your belief on this, yet figured this might be beneficial to others that read these posts.


Word up!

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luchnia
Shall Not He that Spared Not His Own Son Freely Give Us All Things?
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Re: Purpose of the law

Post by luchnia »

Hill Top wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:58 pm
luchnia wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:29 pm
Just as anyone gets baptized, as an outward form of obedience that shows an inward change.
Show me that from the bible.
Go read about John baptizing Jesus in the Jordan. You think Jesus needed saving by water baptism, or do you think that was a sign to fulfill?


Word up!

TruthSeeker
Malachi
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Re: Purpose of the law

Post by TruthSeeker »

Hill Top wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:53 pm
TruthSeeker wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:11 pm
If a person is in a hospital ready to die who has not been reborn and someone comes in and shares the gospel. That person according to Romans 10:9 confesses Jesus as their Lord and believes that God raised Him from the dead. That person's eternal destiny hinges on whether they can make it to the bath tub and be baptized before he takes his last breath?


That man had an entire lifetime to convert. He has had enough time to choose whom he will serve.


At what % of a person's life is he/she cut off from any chance of being reborn. 90% of them living and not repenting? How about 91%, 92%, 95%, etc. At what point does God say "That's it! They have passed the point of ever receiving any of my mercy?"


I believe that God's mercy is extended to a few moments before their they very last breath. Which would be impossible to be baptized at that point.



Hill Top
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Re: Purpose of the law

Post by Hill Top »

luchnia wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:03 am
In my opinion, you are confusing baptisms. I fully believe in the importance of baptism - all of them, however a baptism in water saves no one. Being submerged in water has no saving power.
You are "wallowing" again.
You say you believe all the baptisms are important, then exclude water baptism.
Make up your mind!
What about the other baptisms? What are their relevance? What about the baptism in Christ, or the baptism in the Spirit? Are those null and only water baptism important to salvation? I have an assumption of your belief on this, yet figured this might be beneficial to others that read these posts.
Water baptism is our duty, and a commandment from Jesus. (Mark 16:16)
It is where are our sins are remitted, our old man crucified, buried, and raised with Christ, reborn with Christ to walk in newness of life.
It is how we are "immersed" into Christ.
It is where the flesh is crucified with the affections and lusts.
Without it, you are not washed of your past sins, made a man of the Spirit, freed from the flesh, or reborn.
Baptism in the Holy Spirit is God's gift to us for a true repentance from sin.



Hill Top
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Re: Purpose of the law

Post by Hill Top »

luchnia wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:05 am
Go read about John baptizing Jesus in the Jordan. You think Jesus needed saving by water baptism, or do you think that was a sign to fulfill?
No, Jesus didn't need to be saved at all.
This was the fulfillment of the "pattern" set forth from the OT.
Specifically the washing of the Levites before they were to "execute the service of the Lord". (Num 8:6-11).



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