Dake Bible Discussion BoardCleansed v. Whole

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Hill Top
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Re: Cleansed v. Whole

Post by Hill Top » Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:35 pm

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:26 pm
How does one sin if God's seed remains in him?
If a person that is born of God does not sin, how is it possible for him to sin?
How can God's seed fail to remain in a person that is born of God and is not committing sin?
I think that these are the main questions that would need to be addressed to disprove Hill Top's thesis.
If we can agree that "falling away" is manifested by committing sin, and because God's seed remains in those (re)born of God they cannot commit sin, there is no way to disprove my thesis.



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luchnia
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Re: Cleansed v. Whole

Post by luchnia » Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:17 am

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:58 pm
If a person that is born of God does not sin, how is it possible for him to sin?
I think you already know this, but thought I reply for the sake of it. One that remains with God's seed does not sin as that would be an impossibility. There is no darkness in God's seed. The fact that one can fall from that position is the key. Falling does not indicate one does not carry (in union with) God's seed. God's word does not imply that a man with God's seed cannot fall, only that he will not sin as long as God's seed remains.

The fact that falling is not sin, just like temptation is not sin aides in understanding this. Jesus was tempted like any man is tempted yet did not give in to sin. For one to say that Jesus was not from above and had God's seed would be in a state of lunacy in my opinion. Sin must be birthed before the breach comes as we know from James chapter 1.

When a saint is drawn away (indicates one must be at a place to be drawn away from) by his or her own lust there is still no sin, however when lust has conceived sin is done and spiritual death follows. Many fail in receiving what James is stating about this as well as what Jesus and many others taught about sin. It is man's choice power that is in control of this aspect. If sin were not a danger to a saint of God, would have been no use for the many warnings to saints.

There are many great examples of saints falling away and some to the point of no return, and Judas is a good example of how falling into the sin trap works. He was tempted and could have refused to give in to that temptation, yet as we know he chose sin and followed through with the birth of it.

Look at the difference between Peter and Judas, two saints of God, yet both guilty of falling away to the point of conceiving sin, but one repented and forsook his sin and the other did not. It just goes to show you a man can be saved thousands of times, yet to me a man in that position is walking a tight rope of danger allowing himself to be tossed about with little control. As we know deception is a tough enemy!


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Hill Top
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Re: Cleansed v. Whole

Post by Hill Top » Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:31 pm

luchnia wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:17 am
The fact that falling is not sin,...
I guess we can't agree that falling away is manifested by sin.



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luchnia
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Re: Cleansed v. Whole

Post by luchnia » Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:44 am

Hill Top wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:31 pm
luchnia wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:17 am
The fact that falling is not sin,...
I guess we can't agree that falling away is manifested by sin.
That is correct. We differ on this. I see a difference in one that is falling and one that is fallen.

I do not believe that Scripture supports falling away being a manifestation of sin. It depends on how you define falling, which I think is where we differ. To me, because a man is falling does not mean he has committed sin. There are a number of examples of people that were falling and warned what to do, yet chose to keep following the path to sin. I believe God gives you something to catch - a way out to choose what is right.

I do think that falling away is a place that can be difficult to come back from and many don't, yet if a man does not give in to birth sin, there is no sin committed, thus he has not fallen to sin (James 1). If Judas would have refused to yield to sin, his story would be written differently.

Remember Jesus was in His weakest state when He was tempted. He was tempted in every way as a man yet He would not choose sin. When Judas was tempted, he chose to birth sin and found no place of repentance. Sin can be controlled by whom a man yields to serve. Jesus showed us how to avoid sin and stand in the face of temptation.


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Hill Top
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Re: Cleansed v. Whole

Post by Hill Top » Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:58 pm

luchnia wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:44 am
That is correct. We differ on this. I see a difference in one that is falling and one that is fallen.
I guess you subscribe to the theory of..."It's no the fall that kills you, it's the landing".
Either falling or fallen occurs at one's departure from God.
I do not believe that Scripture supports falling away being a manifestation of sin.
That is the opposite of what I said earlier.
I wrote that sin is a manifestation of having fallen away from God.
It depends on how you define falling, which I think is where we differ. To me, because a man is falling does not mean he has committed sin. There are a number of examples of people that were falling and warned what to do, yet chose to keep following the path to sin. I believe God gives you something to catch - a way out to choose what is right.
You seem to equate temptation with "falling away".
Only after the temptation is acted on has one fallen away from Godliness and from God.
I do think that falling away is a place that can be difficult to come back from and many don't, yet if a man does not give in to birth sin, there is no sin committed, thus he has not fallen to sin (James 1). If Judas would have refused to yield to sin, his story would be written differently.
What is "birth sin"?
Do you mean "commit sin"?
Remember Jesus was in His weakest state when He was tempted. He was tempted in every way as a man yet He would not choose sin. When Judas was tempted, he chose to birth sin and found no place of repentance. Sin can be controlled by whom a man yields to serve. Jesus showed us how to avoid sin and stand in the face of temptation.
If He didn't "choose sin", He didn't "fall away".
Sin is the manifestation of having fallen away.



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luchnia
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Re: Cleansed v. Whole

Post by luchnia » Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:31 am

Hill Top wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:58 pm
You seem to equate temptation with "falling away".
Only after the temptation is acted on has one fallen away from Godliness and from God.
Exactly! You got it! As some would say, "you hit the nail on the head."
That is part of the process and what is taught in the first chapter of James. Sin must be conceived before it will be acted on. Up to that point one is being drawn away and enticed and can turn back to God before the conception of sin that brings spiritual death.


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Hill Top
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Re: Cleansed v. Whole

Post by Hill Top » Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:08 pm

luchnia wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:31 am
Exactly! You got it! As some would say, "you hit the nail on the head."
Then you are saying that Jesus "fell away".
If He had, He wasn't the perfect sacrifice for our sins.
You need to rethink this.
That is part of the process and what is taught in the first chapter of James. Sin must be conceived before it will be acted on. Up to that point one is being drawn away and enticed and can turn back to God before the conception of sin that brings spiritual death.
The conception of sin is the acting on temptation, not the temptation itself.
The refusal to commit sin is the proof of our love for God above all else.
We have no choice on what temptation the devil will use to try and pull us away from perfection.
If one resists temptation they have NOT fallen away.



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luchnia
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Re: Cleansed v. Whole

Post by luchnia » Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:16 am

Hill Top wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:08 pm
luchnia wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:31 am
Exactly! You got it! As some would say, "you hit the nail on the head."
Then you are saying that Jesus "fell away".
If He had, He wasn't the perfect sacrifice for our sins.
You need to rethink this.
That is part of the process and what is taught in the first chapter of James. Sin must be conceived before it will be acted on. Up to that point one is being drawn away and enticed and can turn back to God before the conception of sin that brings spiritual death.
The conception of sin is the acting on temptation, not the temptation itself.
The refusal to commit sin is the proof of our love for God above all else.
We have no choice on what temptation the devil will use to try and pull us away from perfection.
If one resists temptation they have NOT fallen away.
On point one, No, Jesus did not fall away because He chose not to sin after He was tempted and on point two I fully agree with you.


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Hill Top
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Re: Cleansed v. Whole

Post by Hill Top » Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:11 pm

luchnia wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:16 am
The conception of sin is the acting on temptation, not the temptation itself.
The refusal to commit sin is the proof of our love for God above all else.
We have no choice on what temptation the devil will use to try and pull us away from perfection.
If one resists temptation they have NOT fallen away.
On point one, No, Jesus did not fall away because He chose not to sin after He was tempted and on point two I fully agree with you.[/quote]
With that in mind, go back and read you last three posts.



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luchnia
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Re: Cleansed v. Whole

Post by luchnia » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:01 am

Hill Top wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:11 pm
luchnia wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:16 am
The conception of sin is the acting on temptation, not the temptation itself.
The refusal to commit sin is the proof of our love for God above all else.
We have no choice on what temptation the devil will use to try and pull us away from perfection.
If one resists temptation they have NOT fallen away.
On point one, No, Jesus did not fall away because He chose not to sin after He was tempted and on point two I fully agree with you.
With that in mind, go back and read you last three posts.
[/quote]
My last three posts, and all of my posts regarding this subject basically have the same implication to them. Not sure what you are looking for. Sometimes I may word a sentence differently and may miss something from time to time, yet the concept should be the same.

Here is the scriptural basis of what I have been posting about:
1. One with God's seed cannot commit sin as long as God's seed remains. One in Him does not sin.
2. A child of God can be drawn away and enticed by his/her own lust
3. When lust has conceived that conception brings forth sin. He that sins is of the devil.
4. Once sin is completed - eternal separation from God


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