Dake Bible Discussion BoardCleansed v. Whole

General Discussion Forum devoted to the study of God's Word in Honor of Finis J. Dake.
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luchnia
He Which Soweth Sparingly Shall Reap also Sparingly
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Re: Cleansed v. Whole

Post by luchnia » Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:39 am

Hill Top wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:27 pm
luchnia wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:10 am
Hill Top wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 10:32 pm
When a man sins, he shows he was never born of God.
I was asking to see if you would share your source for the statement you made, not the verse from 1 Jn 3:9. 1 Jn 3:9 is scriptural, but there is no scriptural evidence for the "never born from God" statement that you consistently make.

I was simply inquiring about your source for your POV where you state: "When a man sins, he shows he was never born of God." If you don't want to share the information, that is not a problem and I respect that fully. I like to study sources of information such as this and compare it to what the Word of God states on the issue.
1 John 3:9 states it.
Had a man been born of God, God's seed would remain in him.
That seed is the reason they can't commit sin.
Grape vines cannot bear figs.
Grape seeds cannot bear anything but grapes.
God's seed cannot bear anything unGodly.
The knowledge of that brings me great comfort...and strength.
You could have simply typed that you aren't going to share your source for your statement instead of the same thing you have typed over and over that does not support your statement of "never" been born of God. No big deal, I was simply curious about your source.


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Hill Top
Teach All Nations to Observe All Things Whatsoever Jesus Hath Commanded
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Re: Cleansed v. Whole

Post by Hill Top » Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:56 pm

luchnia wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:39 am
You could have simply typed that you aren't going to share your source for your statement instead of the same thing you have typed over and over that does not support your statement of "never" been born of God. No big deal, I was simply curious about your source.
It does support my statement.
Those with God's seed in them cannot bear evil fruit, sin.
If they cannot commit sin, they cannot "fall away" either.
Those purported to have "fallen away", manifest of whom they are born by their sin.
There are plenty of people who fit the "fall away" title, but they show by their sin that they are only leaving a church group or body of believers, and not God.
They were never "of" God.



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luchnia
He Which Soweth Sparingly Shall Reap also Sparingly
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Re: Cleansed v. Whole

Post by luchnia » Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:50 pm

Hill Top wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:56 pm
luchnia wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:39 am
You could have simply typed that you aren't going to share your source for your statement instead of the same thing you have typed over and over that does not support your statement of "never" been born of God. No big deal, I was simply curious about your source.
It does support my statement.
Those with God's seed in them cannot bear evil fruit, sin.
If they cannot commit sin, they cannot "fall away" either.
Those purported to have "fallen away", manifest of whom they are born by their sin.
There are plenty of people who fit the "fall away" title, but they show by their sin that they are only leaving a church group or body of believers, and not God.
They were never "of" God.
If you can force "never fall away" into 1 Jn 3:9 and make it mean what it doesn't mean, you can make any scripture mean anything.


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Spiritblade Disciple
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Re: Cleansed v. Whole

Post by Spiritblade Disciple » Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:58 pm

How does one sin if God's seed remains in him?

If a person that is born of God does not sin, how is it possible for him to sin?

How can God's seed fail to remain in a person that is born of God and is not committing sin?


Job 14:4 King James Version
Who can bring a CLEAN thing out of an UNCLEAN? Not one.

Hill Top
Teach All Nations to Observe All Things Whatsoever Jesus Hath Commanded
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Re: Cleansed v. Whole

Post by Hill Top » Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:42 pm

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:58 pm
How does one sin if God's seed remains in him?
He can't.
Apple trees cannot bring forth yams.
If a person that is born of God does not sin, how is it possible for him to sin?
It isn't possible.
The seed of the apple prohibits it from bearing yams.
How can God's seed fail to remain in a person that is born of God and is not committing sin?
It will not fail to remain "in a person that is born of God".
An apple trees fruit will always be only apples.



Hill Top
Teach All Nations to Observe All Things Whatsoever Jesus Hath Commanded
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Re: Cleansed v. Whole

Post by Hill Top » Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:52 pm

luchnia wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:50 pm
If you can force "never fall away" into 1 Jn 3:9 and make it mean what it doesn't mean, you can make any scripture mean anything.
I'm surprised you can doubt the power of God to keep His seed pure.
His people have crucified the flesh, (with the affections and lusts), (Gal 5:24), so cannot be enticed by anything from this fallen world.
Of course that crucifixion happens at water baptism, (Rom 6:3-6),...which you have previously discounted.
You seem to have painted yourself into a corner; doubting the necessary mechanics of perfection, has also left you with doubts about the effect of rebirth.



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luchnia
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Re: Cleansed v. Whole

Post by luchnia » Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:07 am

Hill Top wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:52 pm
I'm surprised you can doubt the power of God to keep His seed pure.
His people have crucified the flesh, (with the affections and lusts), (Gal 5:24), so cannot be enticed by anything from this fallen world.
I'm surprised after all these posts you don't understand my view on this. This is a subject that you and I will not agree on. To say that I doubt the power of God is completely misunderstanding my view. I don't doubt God's seed is pure at all. God's seed will always be pure and as long as God's seed remains in the believer, the believer is pure as well. One with that seed cannot sin as I have stated many times and hold fast to, yet for me to deny that the facts from God's word that show the saint can fall away to unbelief and sin is foolish.

God's word shows that one with that seed has FULL CHOICE POWER to fully turn to sin and fall away as God's word teaches in numerous places. The important thing is that the seed remains in the believer. What happens if the seed does not remain? You have yet to respond to that question with rationale. I know you are locked in that the seed is forced to remain in a born again person and you have no power over that seed within you. I get your view, but disagree with it.

BTW, the fig tree that did not bear fruit, what did Jesus do to that tree? What happens to any tree that does not continue to bear fruit? What will happen to the limbs of the trees that stop bearing fruit? Will they be cast away or remain pure? Could the apostle Paul have become a castaway, or would that have been impossible since God's seed was in him?

The author of Hebrews believed one could depart from God:
9When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. 10Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. 11So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) 12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; 15While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.


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luchnia
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Re: Cleansed v. Whole

Post by luchnia » Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:09 am

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:58 pm
How does one sin if God's seed remains in him?

If a person that is born of God does not sin, how is it possible for him to sin?

How can God's seed fail to remain in a person that is born of God and is not committing sin?
:angel: Great questions!


Word up!

Hill Top
Teach All Nations to Observe All Things Whatsoever Jesus Hath Commanded
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Re: Cleansed v. Whole

Post by Hill Top » Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:21 pm

luchnia wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:07 am
I'm surprised after all these posts you don't understand my view on this. This is a subject that you and I will not agree on. To say that I doubt the power of God is completely misunderstanding my view. I don't doubt God's seed is pure at all. God's seed will always be pure and as long as God's seed remains in the believer, the believer is pure as well. One with that seed cannot sin as I have stated many times and hold fast to, yet for me to deny that the facts from God's word that show the saint can fall away to unbelief and sin is foolish.
As God's seed "remaineth in him", how can he fall away?
Grape vines, (those born of God), cannot bear figs, (sin).
God's word shows that one with that seed has FULL CHOICE POWER to fully turn to sin and fall away as God's word teaches in numerous places. The important thing is that the seed remains in the believer. What happens if the seed does not remain? You have yet to respond to that question with rationale. I know you are locked in that the seed is forced to remain in a born again person and you have no power over that seed within you. I get your view, but disagree with it.
What one proves by falling away is that God's seed wasn't in them.
BTW, the fig tree that did not bear fruit, what did Jesus do to that tree? What happens to any tree that does not continue to bear fruit? What will happen to the limbs of the trees that stop bearing fruit? Will they be cast away or remain pure?
You are mixing your metaphors.
This use of a fig tree does not mesh with the "seed remaineth in him" lesson from 1 John 3:9.
Could the apostle Paul have become a castaway, or would that have been impossible since God's seed was in him?
It would have been impossible IF GOD'S SEED WAS IN HIM.
If God's seed had never been in him, he could appear to have fallen away.
The author of Hebrews believed one could depart from God:
9When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. 10Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. 11So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) 12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; 15While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
If men "fall away", they show they were never of God's seed: for His seed would have remained in them.



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Spiritblade Disciple
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Re: Cleansed v. Whole

Post by Spiritblade Disciple » Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:26 pm

luchnia wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:09 am
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:58 pm
How does one sin if God's seed remains in him?

If a person that is born of God does not sin, how is it possible for him to sin?

How can God's seed fail to remain in a person that is born of God and is not committing sin?
:angel: Great questions!
I think that these are the main questions that would need to be addressed to disprove Hill Top's thesis.


Job 14:4 King James Version
Who can bring a CLEAN thing out of an UNCLEAN? Not one.

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