Dake Bible Discussion BoardOld or new

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macca
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Old or new

Post by macca » Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:25 am

What is wrong with this verse?

2 Cor. 3:14;
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remains the same vail untaken away in reading the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.



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Re: Old or new

Post by Hill Top » Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:12 pm

macca wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:25 am
What is wrong with this verse?

2 Cor. 3:14;
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remains the same vail untaken away in reading the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
I'll bite...what is wrong with it?
Besides the archaic spelling of "vail".



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Re: Old or new

Post by Ironman » Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:47 pm

macca wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:25 am
What is wrong with this verse?

2 Cor. 3:14;
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remains the same vail untaken away in reading the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
The vail, untaken away. Many people to this very day believe the ten commandments including the sabbath are still in force.


Galatians 4: 16, Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

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Re: Old or new

Post by Hill Top » Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:35 pm

Ironman wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:47 pm
The vail, untaken away. Many people to this very day believe the ten commandments including the sabbath are still in force.
How does that make the verse "wrong"?

Your post made me think of the new "law of liberty"...freedom from the Mosaic Law.
"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage." (Gal 5:1)
That yoke of bondage included WAY more than just the ten commandments.
"So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty." (James 2:12)
We can see that though the ten commandments aren't "enforced", they are still pertinent to the Spiritual result of loving our brothers as ourselves. (Excepting the Sabbath observance)



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Re: Old or new

Post by macca » Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:15 am

2 Cor. 3:14; for until this day remains the same vail untaken away in the reading of THE OLD TESTAMENT; WHICH IS DONE AWAY IN CHRIST.


What is wrong about this verse is the inclusion of the word "vail" in the last phrase ' which is done away in Christ'
For the word "vail' is not in the Greek of the original .

Therefore what this verse is actually saying is that " The old Testament (old covenant) is done away with in Christ"



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Re: Old or new

Post by Spiritblade Disciple » Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:57 am

macca wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:15 am
2 Cor. 3:14; for until this day remains the same vail untaken away in the reading of THE OLD TESTAMENT; WHICH IS DONE AWAY IN CHRIST.


What is wrong about this verse is the inclusion of the word "vail" in the last phrase ' which is done away in Christ'
For the word "vail' is not in the Greek of the original .

Therefore what this verse is actually saying is that " The old Testament (old covenant) is done away with in Christ"
Which Greek text is the original?

And, I would consider that your interpretation of the English, even without the inclusion of the word 'vail'' in the last phase is still inaccurate.


Job 14:4 King James Version
Who can bring a CLEAN thing out of an UNCLEAN? Not one.

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Re: Old or new

Post by macca » Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:47 am

Take it up with the Authorized Edition 1611, and Finnis J Dake GPFM Lesson 32 at the end of the first paragraph.
I can not read Greek but I trust Dake.



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Re: Old or new

Post by Spiritblade Disciple » Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:12 am

The 1611, whether or not the second vail is in the Greek, included the Word vail where Dake claims it it ought be removed.

"which vaile is done away in Christ"

So, even if it wasn't in the Greek that the KJV translators used, they believed the English required the word to accurately convey the meaning og the Greek.

Essentially, it comes down to which expert(s) do you trusts? And, why do you trust them?

You trust Dake over the KJV translators. I agree with the KJV translators that it is clearly the veil that is done away, in this verse. Even if the word veil weren't in the Greek in the last phrase, the phrase would still refer to the veil and not the entire Old Testament.

I am disappointed that Dake fell for this faulty logic.


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Who can bring a CLEAN thing out of an UNCLEAN? Not one.

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Re: Old or new

Post by luchnia » Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:17 am

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:12 am
The 1611, whether or not the second vail is in the Greek, included the Word vail where Dake claims it it ought be removed.

"which vaile is done away in Christ"

So, even if it wasn't in the Greek that the KJV translators used, they believed the English required the word to accurately convey the meaning og the Greek.

Essentially, it comes down to which expert(s) do you trusts? And, why do you trust them?

You trust Dake over the KJV translators. I agree with the KJV translators that it is clearly the veil that is done away, in this verse. Even if the word veil weren't in the Greek in the last phrase, the phrase would still refer to the veil and not the entire Old Testament.

I am disappointed that Dake fell for this faulty logic.
Going back to the beginning of the chapter and the whole idea, what difference does it make if veil is taken out of this verse? It does not do away with the OT, nor the concept of what was being shown in that chapter.

If you are thinking it is a veil that does not let one see into the OT clearly, then at least now one could certainly see clearly the OT and understand what was done away in Christ. It would even make it all the more clear what happened when the Testator died. Not everything was abolished, but much was.

To use the term "old covenant" is a bad brush stroke, even Dake taught on the many everlasting covenants in the OT. It is important to understand exactly what was done away in Christ.

I may be confused on where you guys are going here and please elaborate if that appears to be the case.


Word up!

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Re: Old or new

Post by Spiritblade Disciple » Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:25 pm

luchnia wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:17 am
I may be confused on where you guys are going here and please elaborate if that appears to be the case.
I think Macca's point is that the verse is saying that the entire Old Testament is done away. I don't believe that that is what this verse is saying. I think it is saying that the veil is done away in Christ.

Macca doesn't think that the word "veil" is there in the Greek, in the last clause of 2 Cor. 3:16, but it is there in my Greek Interlinear.

Now, there are multiple differing Greek manuscripts around. I suppose that it is possible that some do not have it. However, even if it were not in all of them, to me, it makes sense that the veil is the object of the phrase in question, not the entire Old Testament.

At the time of Paul's writing, the New Testament had yet to be compiled and hadn't been fully written. The Old Testament was often quoted by Paul. It really makes no sense for me to think that Paul believed that it had been entirely done away with. However, if I understand that Paul is saying that there's a veil over the eyes of folks that read the Old Testament outside of Christ that prevents them from truly understanding the revelation of the Old Testament and that that veil is done away in Christ, it makes perfect sense.


Job 14:4 King James Version
Who can bring a CLEAN thing out of an UNCLEAN? Not one.

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