Dake Bible Discussion BoardTradition in the Church

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Jay
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Tradition in the Church

Post by Jay » Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:49 pm

Mark 7:13 (KJV)
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Tradition is rampant in the Church. That is why there is no power in so many churches. They believe and teach their tradition instead of God's Word. Let me give you a couple of examples. I've even seen people on this discussion board pass along man's tradition instead of God's Word.

1. That One Third of the Angels Fell with Lucifer.
The Bible Never teaches that one third of them fell with him. The Bible teaches that one third WILL fall with him in the future. You will never find a scripture that says one third of the angels fell when Lucifer did in eternity past. It is NOT in the Bible. Apparently it was preached somewhere, someone heard it, they preached, and it passed on and on and on. It is the tradition of men, NOT THE WORD OF GOD!

What does the Bible say? Let me show you.

Revelation 12:3-4 (KJV)
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

If you don't know what the woman and the manchild are, read Dake's book, "Revelation Expounded."

EVERY BIT of Revelation chapter 12 is FUTURE TENSE. One third of the angels WILL FALL in the future. The Bible NEVER says one third fell when Lucifer was cast out of heaven in eternity past. The truth is, we do not know how many angels fell with Lucifer.

2. Paul's Thorn in the Flesh - I can't believe how many people teach that Paul's thorn in the flesh was some kind of eye disease! Look at the scripture but I hear it ALL THE TIME!

2 Corinthians 12:7 (KJV)
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Most people read this scripture this way: ",,,there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, lest I should be exalted above measure." They don't read the part that says EXACTLY what the thorn in the flesh was. It was "the messenger of Satan" WHICH WAS AN ANGEL (messenger in the Greek is "angelos") FROM SATAN and the reason was to buffet Paul to keep him from getting the big-head and end up losing his salvation because of all the revelations he had.

It is commonly believed that when Paul was stoned at Lystra, that he was killed and this is when he had his visit to heaven of which he speaks about 14 years later. After all, the sole purpose of stoning someone is to kill them. Paul's eyes could have been messed up from the stoning but that WAS NOT the thorn in the flesh that was given to him even though it could have been a result of all the angel of Satan did.

What did this "messenger" from Satan do to Paul to be a "thorn in his flesh?" Just back up to the previous chapter and Paul tells us:

2 Corinthians 11:23-28 (KJV)
23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.

This is what the angel from Satan, the thorn in the flesh caused. Paul was shipwrecked, beaten, stoned, etc. God DID NOT give him an eye disease. God is not in the business of handing out diseases!

Brothers and Sisters, we MUST teach the Word of God, NOT TRADITION that has been passed down. Tradition has no power but God's Word does! As Brother Hagin used to always say, "Stick with the Word of God and you'll be okay!"


Hebrews 10:35-36
Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

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Ironman
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Re: Tradition in the Church

Post by Ironman » Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:01 pm

"1. That One Third of the Angels Fell with Lucifer.
The Bible Never teaches that one third of them fell with him. The Bible teaches that one third WILL fall with him in the future."
.

Lucifer rebelled and led an invasion into heaven to try and dethrone God, long before Adam was created. Lucifer convinced one third of God's angels to join him in this rebellion.

Lucifer ruled the pre-adamite world which God destroyed and covered with water when Lucifer and one third of God's angels invaded heaven. There are two great floods mentioned in Scripture, one, Lucifers flood and the second Noahs flood, both as an act of punishment.

Taken from God's Plan for man and the Dake Bible notes;

There were two great floods on the Earth, 1. we shall call Lucifers flood brought upon the Earth because of lucifers rebellion, and 2. Noahs flood caused by the rebellion of man. Many Scriptures show there was a great difference between them, all we need do is read every one and believe what we read.

The first where God destroyed His original creation because of Lucifers rebellion, and the second, Noah's flood because of mans rebellion.
Lucifers flood, everything was destroyed, all life, no light, the earth made empty and void.
Noah's flood, all life was not destroyed. Noah, his wife, his sons and their wives were left alive, plus all animals and the sun and moon was not prevented from giving light.
Here are all the Scriptures proving this occurred, read them for yourself then believe them or not??
Noahs flood which I will post as . 'N.F.' Lucifers flood, L.F.

L.F. Earth made waste (Gen. 1:2; Jer. 4:23-26; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. Earth not made waste (Gen. 8:11-12, 22 ; Heb. 11:7 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. Earth made empty (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23).
N.F. Earth not made empty (Gen. 6:18-22 ; 8:16).

L.F. Earth made totally dark (Gen. 1:2-5 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Not made totally dark (Gen. 8:6-22)

L.F. No light from heaven (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Light from heaven (Gen. 8:6-22).

L.F. No day and night (Gen. 1:2-5).
N.F. Day and night (Gen. 8:1-22).

L.F. All vegetation destroyed Gen. 1:2 ; 2:5-6 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Vegetation not destroyed (Gen. 8:11, 21 ; 9:3, 20).

L.F. No continued abating of the waters off the earth (Gen. 1:6-12).
N.F. Continued abating of the waters from the earth by evaporation (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. Waters taken off the earth in one day (Gen. 1:10).
N.F. Months of waters abating off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. God supernaturally takes waters off the earth (Gen. 1:6-12).
N.F. Natural work of evaporation of the waters off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. No rebuke or miraculous work in fled away (Gen. 1:6-12 ; Ps. 104:7).
N.F. No rebuke or miraculous work is taking waters off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. The waters on earth in Gen. 1:2, hasted away when rebuked (Gen. 1:6-2 ; Ps. 104:9).
N.F. The bounds already eternally set for waters in Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. All fish were totally destroyed in flood of Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. No fish were destroyed of created again after Noah's flood (Gen. 1:20-23 ; 6:18-22).

L.F. No Fowls left on the earth after (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Fowls were left after Noah's flood (Gen. 6:20 ; 8:7-17).

L.F. No animals left after (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. Some of all animals kept alive (Gen. 6:20 ; 8:17 ; 9:2-4, 10-16).

L.F. No man left on earth in Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. Eight men and women left after Noah's flood (Gen. 6:18 ; 8:15-22 ; 9:1-16 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. No social system left at all in Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. A social system left after Noah's flood (Gen. 8:15-22 ; 9:1-16 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. No ark made to save men in Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. An ark made to save men and animals alive (Gen. 6:8-8 : 22 ; 9:1-16 ; Heb. 11:7).

L.F. Cause: fall of Lucifer, now Satan (Isa. 14:12-14; Jer. 4:23-26; Ezek. 28:11-17 ; Luke 10:18).
N.F. Cause: wickedness of men (Gen. 6:5-13) ; and fallen angels (Gen. 6:1-4; Jude 6-7 ; 2 Pet. 2:4).

L.F. Result: became necessary to make new life on earth (Gen. 1:3-2 : 25 ; Isa. 45:18 ; Eph. 3:11).
N.F. Results: no new creation made, for all men and animals were not destroyed (Gen. 6:18-8 : 22 ; 9:1-16).
The original creations of God include the heavens and the Earth and all things therein as first brought into being. This period is summed up in Gen. 1:1. thus: "In the beginning God created the heaven [Hebrew, heavens] and the earth." This refers to the dateless past, and takes in only a part of the creative ages, that is, from the beginning of creation until the chaotic period of Gen. 1:2 when the Earth and its first inhabitants were destroyed by the first flood. Notice during Noahs flood not all inhabitants , vegetation, animals, day, night were destroyed.
There are many other passages in Scripture that refer to that period (Job. 38; Ps. 8:3-8; 19:1-6; Prov. 8:22-31; John 1:3,10; Acts 17:24-26; Col. 1:15-18; Heb. 1:1-12; 11:3; Rev. 4:11).
Rev. 4:11).
In Scripture, all instances of obscuring the sun and bringing darkness are the result of judgment, not creation-which is also true of the two universal floods (Genesis 6:8-8:22; Exodus 10:21-23; Isaiah 5:30; Jeremiah 4:23-26).
All predictions of future darkness depict judgment (Matthew 8:12; Matthew 24:29-31; Rev. 6:12-17; Rev. 8:12; Rev. 9:2; Rev. 16:10; Isaiah 13:10; Joel 2:30-3:16; Amos 5:18-20).
Could we say that Genesis 1:2 is the only place in Scripture where darkness and a universal flood are not an act of judgment? If it isn't an option, then Genesis 1:2 proves that there was a pre-Adamite world destroyed by darkness and flood.
No one questions that Noah's flood was an act of judgment, or doubts the existence of free moral agents before the flood actually came. Why then doubt the existence of a pre-Adamite world which was destroyed by the darkness and flood of Genesis 1:2?


Galatians 4: 16, Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

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Re: Tradition in the Church

Post by luchnia » Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:47 am

Jay wrote:Mark 7:13 (KJV)
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Don't see you posting much here. Glad to see some more posts that have the references. Thanks, and keep 'em coming!


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Jay
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Re: Tradition in the Church

Post by Jay » Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:27 am

<quote>Lucifer rebelled and led an invasion into heaven to try and dethrone God, long before Adam was created. Lucifer convinced one third of God's angels to join him in this rebellion.</quote>

Hi Ironman,

I haven't been on the discussion board in a long time and I forgot that we whipped this horse to death about 5 or 6 years ago.

You have posted a lot about Lucifer's flood and Noah's flood. That is a completely different topic. I agree that there were two separate floods. That point is absolutely scriptural.

The topic of one third of the angels falling with Lucifer, in the pre-Adamite world is NOT. We do know that other angels besides Lucifer fell but the Bible never tells exactly when. It must have been in the Dispensation of Conscience though because it was during this time that they took the "daughters of men" as their wives.

Genesis 6:1-2 (KJV)
1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

Had Lucifer already fallen and become our adversary by this time? Yes, absolutely. I can find NO scripture saying that the other angels fell BEFORE this. Maybe they did and maybe they didn't. The Bible isn't clear. If you can give me scripture and verse I'll have to believe it.

When the angels took these women and procreated with them, the women giving birth to those who were the giants, they could have already been fallen or maybe that is when they decided to "leave their first estate" through their free will because they saw how beautiful these women were. Since the Bible calls them "the sons of God" at this time, I have to believe that this is the moment they fell. Their lust led them to fall from God's grace.

If you'll remember, there were giants AFTER NOAH'S FLOOD. The Israelites were surrounded by them as they wandered through the wilderness those forty years. They were also commanded to kill men, women and children because they were wicked and if they weren't giants, I think it is safe to say they had the DNA of the fallen angels and they could not be saved like men can be.

So Israel failed in killing off the giants and David had to contend with Goliath. Later on, the other four giants were killed during David's reign as king. So, did more angels fall AFTER NOAH'S FLOOD? Again, the Bible is not clear. We can only assume. We cannot say FACTUALLY that more angels fell or that they were the same ones that caused the trouble in Genesis 6.

We can assume many things but we can't claim them to be Bible truth unless we have scriptures to back up our points.

The ONLY scripture I've heard from those who believe one third of the angels fell WITH Lucifer is from Revelation chapter 12.

Revelation 12:1-5 (KJV)
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

This is a FUTURE EVENT which happens AFTER the rapture of the Church which occurs in Revelation 4:1. What is going on in Rev. 12? There was this mysterious woman. She was pregnant and she was travailing in birth trying to deliver the "man-child."

Then there appeared a red dragon. He stood before the woman just waiting for her child to be born so he could devour it.

If you believe what Dake taught on this, and I do, he taught that the woman is Israel in the tribulation and the child she will deliver will be the 144,000 young, virgin, Jewish men that are consecrated to our Lord.

The dragon draws a third of the stars out of heaven with his tail at this time which is Absolutely a FUTURE EVENT which takes place in the 7 years of trials and tribulation. To read this into the past, pre-Adamite era is not Biblical. Unfortunately, even Dake used Rev. 12:4 to justify believing that one third of the angels fell with Lucifer.

I've stated that I believe about 99% of what Dake taught. He had a LOT of wisdom and a LOT of Bible knowledge and we can all learn from his writings. However, we MUST ALWAYS check everything by the Word of God, no matter who teaches it.

Last year or the year before I taught a LONG series on Revelation. It was one of the hardest things I've ever done and Dake's notes and his book, Revelation Expounded, helped me tremendously. His systematic approach to Revelation is the best teaching I've ever heard on eschatology that I have ever heard and believe me, I've heard a LOT of them. After Revelation 4:1, when the rapture occurs, the REVELATION we are given does not bounce back and forth from dispensation to dispensation. Chapter 12 of Revelation is speaking entirely about what is going to happen with Israel and the 144,000 Jewish men and how Satan wants to destroy them.

Are the stars mentioned in Rev. 12:4 really angels? We assume they are because "stars" are used symbolically for angels in other passages. So, to believe that one third of the angels fall in the future to help that old red dragon (who we also assume to be Satan) try to kill the man-child. But to take Rev. 12:4 and apply it to a completely different dispensation is just too far out there for me.

It is fine to assume when the Bible is not clear on certain topics but we should never state our assumptions as Biblical truth. I have a little different idea about HOW the rapture is going to happen that I will share on this discussion board one of these days. I believe it is correct but I cannot conclusively state that IT IS Biblical and it cannot be conclusively stated that it is not Biblical.

We MUST TEACH THE WORD OF GOD AND NOT MAN'S TRADITION.


Hebrews 10:35-36
Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

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Re: Tradition in the Church

Post by Spiritblade Disciple » Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:04 pm

Jay wrote:I've stated that I believe about 99% of what Dake taught. He had a LOT of wisdom and a LOT of Bible knowledge and we can all learn from his writings. However, we MUST ALWAYS check everything by the Word of God, no matter who teaches it.
Although, I'm pretty sure that I agree with less than 99%, I definitely agree with you that "we MUST ALWAYS check everything by the Word of God, no matter who teaches it."

Good post. :angel:



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Re: Tradition in the Church

Post by Spiritblade Disciple » Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:07 pm

Jay wrote: If you can give me scripture and verse I'll have to believe it.
:angel: I really like this statement!



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Re: Tradition in the Church

Post by luchnia » Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:16 pm

Jay wrote: It is fine to assume when the Bible is not clear on certain topics but we should never state our assumptions as Biblical truth. I have a little different idea about HOW the rapture is going to happen that I will share on this discussion board one of these days. I believe it is correct but I cannot conclusively state that IT IS Biblical and it cannot be conclusively stated that it is not Biblical.

We MUST TEACH THE WORD OF GOD AND NOT MAN'S TRADITION.
Since this thread is titled Tradition in the Church, I wanted to throw a few cents in the discussion. You make some points I am often making. We can assume, speculate, have conjecture and so on which is good as long as it is understood as such, but to make an assumption Biblical truth doesn't hold water.

We can share concepts about what we perceive with the agenda that this might help someone study and grow in Christ, or at least see our view. So many of the topics on here seem as if someone is shouting that they are a secret vessel to God's meaning of something because of what men say or some notes they read somewhere.

The SOURCE is His Word by the Spirit. We perceive things in many different ways and we find for the most part that is shaped by our environment and how our minds work. I think when disagreeing we should support our views with scripture or at least state this is why we think so and so. For many of us, it is probably not enough time in the day to do so though :mrgreen:


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Re: Tradition in the Church

Post by luchnia » Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:26 pm

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Jay wrote:I've stated that I believe about 99% of what Dake taught. He had a LOT of wisdom and a LOT of Bible knowledge and we can all learn from his writings. However, we MUST ALWAYS check everything by the Word of God, no matter who teaches it.
Although, I'm pretty sure that I agree with less than 99%, I definitely agree with you that "we MUST ALWAYS check everything by the Word of God, no matter who teaches it."

Good post. :angel:
I am probably somewhere in the 90-95% range maybe more (not sure how you put a percentage on it), but the work effort he put into it was simply awe inspiring to me! In some areas such as the Holy Spirit I think he knocks it out of the park where so many other men miss it.

I have spent thousands of hours studying God's word, have read hundreds upon hundreds of works of other authors, studied koine greek and the formation of languages, and on and on for over 40 years now and have not scratched the surface of the expanse of God.

Dake's notes alone is phenomenal (for lack of a better word) and my life has been richly blessed by them! As I get older, I think the main thing I have learned is how little I do know :shocked!:


Word up!

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Re: Tradition in the Church

Post by luchnia » Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:28 pm

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Jay wrote: If you can give me scripture and verse I'll have to believe it.
AS long as it is in context! :mrgreen:


Word up!

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Re: Tradition in the Church

Post by Ironman » Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:33 pm

"Genesis 6:1-2 (KJV)
1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

Had Lucifer already fallen and become our adversary by this time? Yes, absolutely. I can find NO scripture saying that the other angels fell BEFORE this. Maybe they did and maybe they didn't. The Bible isn't clear. If you can give me scripture and verse I'll have to believe it.

When the angels took these women and procreated with them, the women giving birth to those who were the giants, they could have already been fallen or maybe that is when they decided to "leave their first estate" through their free will because they saw how beautiful these women were. Since the Bible calls them "the sons of God" at this time, I have to believe that this is the moment they fell. Their lust led them to fall from God's grace."
.

Sure their calls sons of God, Lucifer, now Satan and the angels that sided with him are still sons of God only now fallen sons of God. I'm sure these angels were already fallen with and when Lucifer fell, and he sent them to procreate with the daughters of men to try and stop the birth of Jesus by doing away with the pure Adamite stock. (Gen. 6:4; 1 pet. 3:19; 2 Pet. 2:4; Jude 6-7).

On my opinion, after witnessing what God did to lucifer, the Earth, and the one third of the angels that followed him, the angels who remained faithfull would never do something so stupid.


Galatians 4: 16, Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

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