Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Is America ready for this kind of preaching?

[bibleman]

And I do not understand why what I am saying keeps making you all think I am teaching "sin, sin, sin some more because...grace".

I am for grace, not sin, not works. Grace.

Hey Chris,

Do you think Christians should have good works?

Do you think that evil works will send people to Hell?

When you say you are not for works, then it sounds like you are saying that a Christian can have bad works and still go to Heaven.

Surely you are not saying that are you?

[luchnia]

I always like this verse: Awake to righteousness and sin not. That sort of sums up the sin business for me. I did not watch the video, but the word discernment comes to mind when thinking about preaching/speaking to one in sin.

I think in all situations discernment is key as to what one says to another that is in sin. It may be the "sin not" admonition, or it may be that you have to discuss something else to find common ground to get the window opened to the heart of a man, as words can fall on deaf ears when dealing with one blinded by darkness. After being in God's word for over 30 years now one thing I have learned is that using the Bible for a club to bludgeon ain't always the best method.

I have been working on a guy for about a year now and been cautious about what I was saying to him. I let my life show before him. At times I wanted to use the "smack down" on him, but I chose softer words. I often asked God to enlighten me as the best way to deal with this individual as I did not want to dare speak the wrong thing. He was not a homo, but was involved in all sorts of other darkness. Lo and behold about a month ago he accepted Jesus! I am still stunned over the whole thing and how that I was even a part of it. It greatly humbles me that words cannot express.

The entrance of the Word brings light.

[cpbeller]

Leon, let me start this by quoting Ephesians 2:8-10

(Ephesians 2:8-10 ESV) For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

You asked: "Do you think Christians should have good works?"

I say, YES. But, I will also say, we are not saved by those works. And why do you think that you could not save yourself with your own works, but after you are saved, you can keep yourself saved by your works? The Bible declares that our good works is as a woman's used up menstrual rags when placed before Him. If you are relying on yourself and how good a Christian you are to "get into heaven", then you are missing the entire point of salvation. You are missing everything about Jesus.

Why did Jesus ever come? Because of God's great grace. Because God loved this world, Jesus died. And it wasn't even that "God loved the world ENOUGH..." John 3:16 does not say, "For God loved the world enough, that He gave His only begotten Son..." Oh no, It says, "For God SO loved the world..." His love was so overwhelming, so beyond anything we could ever even imagine or really even ever put to words. For God SO loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, and that whoever would believe on Him would not perish, but have eternal life".

Interesting that the very words from Jesus did not mention being a "good little boy" to get into heaven. He only said, "Believe". Now, I know...James says that "faith without works is dead". The good works MUST come with the faith. But the good works do not come to make you saved, they come because you are saved. In fact, the passage I posted above from Ephesians says that we are His workmanship, created in Jesus for good works, that we should walk in them. The good works should be happening...but not to save us, or to keep us saved, but rather, because we ARE saved. God says it is in Jesus that we do the good works, it is because of Jesus that we do the good works, it is by Jesus that we do the good works, it is all about Jesus. After you have worked and made it to heaven, are you going to stand before the Throne, and declare: "'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'" If you think for even a minute that you are going to boast before God about what awesome things YOU have done, even in His Name...well, go read what happens to them. It is in Matthew 7.

The moment you begin to look at the "good things" you have done, you have taken your eyes off of Jesus. Read Hebrews 12:1-2...

Hebrews 12:1-2 ESV "Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God."

When you start looking at how good you are, you take your eyes off of Jesus, who Paul says we should be "looking to". It is Him. It was always Him. It will be Him. It will always be Him. It is not Christopher Paul Beller who saved himself with a little bit of help from Jesus. It will not be Christopher Paul Beller who will keep himself saved with a little bit of help from Jesus. I cannot do it, other than the part that God has demanded from me, and that is "Believe".

You also asked: "Do you think that evil works will send people to Hell?"

Let me ask you this question: Why do you seem to be trying to figure out how much you can do, but still stay saved? Why do you keep asking that question? Why does it seem that you are trying to find out what we can do, but still "make it to heaven"? Because that is what that question sounds like. "How bad can I be, but still be saved?" You see, it really should not be about that. Now, the Church has made it about that. But here is what I have discovered, very recently. The more time I spend with Jesus. The more time I spend walking with Him, talking with Him, and just being with Him...the more I want HIM. The more I want Him, and the less I want sin. This discussion should never be about a license to sin. Rather, it should always be about living life with Jesus. Our life should reflect the grace of God. We were saved by grace. But grace has become a dirty word on this board lately. And to me, that is shameful.

Now, will evil works send people to hell? I know what the Bible says in regards to that...but I will also answer with this:

John 3:18-21 ESV Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God."

Jesus says, very clearly, why people are condemned. It is because they do not believe in Him. Actually, this passage very clearly describes what it is that I believe about what sends people to Hell. They do evil works because they do not believe. They are condemned because they do not believe. Their names are not written in the Book of Life, because they do not believe. And according to Revelation 20:15...

"And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

It is all about WHO you know...not WHAT you do. An interesting note (because I am sure you will bring it up), Revelation 20:12 says, "And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done." Note that there were books opened up, and then there was the Book of Life opened up. The dead were judged by what was written in the books. But even that judgement is not what sent them to hell. It was the fact that their "names were not written in the Book of Life". Again, it is all about Jesus. It is not about what you do, it is about who you know. If we, the Church, would only let Him reveal Himself, instead of pointing our fingers at everyone, the question: "What can I be after I am saved, to stay saved, and make it to heaven?" would not be asked much. Instead, the question would be: "What must I do to be saved?" And with that, the answer is very simple: Believe on Jesus.

I know that Dake taught a "good works salvation", or at least, that is how it is preached on here. I disagree with that. When I say, "I am against works", I mean that I am against us working to be saved. Because we cannot work to be saved. We cannot work to stay saved. Again, it is all about Him. Why do you think we will be casting our crowns before Him?

Revelation 4:9-11 ESV And whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to him who is seated on the throne, who lives forever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before him who is seated on the throne and worship him who lives forever and ever. They cast their crowns before the throne, saying, "Worthy are you, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created."

(Dake also states that the 24 elders are reprensentative of the raptured saints, the Church). Why will cast our crowns before the throne? I believe it is because the realization is, and will be...it is not about us. It is not how good we are. It is not what we did. It is not what we think we did, or what we thought we should have done. Our good works were created by Him, in Him, so that we should walk in them, in Him.

Let me reiterate....It is not what a good boy Christopher Paul Beller was. Should good works be the way of my life? Yes, because I am a believer. But am I saved because God owes me salvation because I was a good boy? You better believe I will answer with a resounding NO.

The Lord asked me the other morning, "What will your legacy be when you are gone?" Interesting question...when I am in the casket, and the preacher is giving a testimony of my life...what will he say? Will he say I was a good man? A good person? I helped people in need? I was a good husband, perhaps? All those things are good...but even a sinner can do all of that. What legacy will I leave behind for my kids? Will they remember me for the silly things I did, the time I spent with them? What will my legacy be? I hope and pray that my legacy would be: Chris loved Jesus. Let that be put on my tombstone: Chris loved Jesus. Let my kids remember that "Daddy loved Jesus". Let my testimony ring, "Chris loved Jesus." I want THAT to be my legacy. Not all of these "good works"...but that I visibly loved the One who saved me. And the funny thing about that? The Bible says that we love Him BECAUSE He first loved us. Even my love for Him is not based off of me. It is still, even my love for Him, is still because of...HIM.

Should the Christian do good works? Yes
Is the Christian saved because of His good works? No
Can the Christian stay saved because of His good works? No
Can evil works send a person to hell? Short answer, Yes. Long answer, it is because they do evil works because they do not believe, and because they do not believe, they will be judged according to their works, and after that judgement, they are then cast into the Lake of Fire BECAUSE their names are not in the Book of Life.

[cpbeller]

Shorter post in regards to my longer post above...

[video][/video]

[bibleman]

Leon, let me start this by quoting Ephesians 2:8-10

(Ephesians 2:8-10 ESV) For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

You asked: "Do you think Christians should have good works?"

I say, YES. But, I will also say, we are not saved by those works. And why do you think that you could not save yourself with your own works, but after you are saved, you can keep yourself saved by your works? The Bible declares that our good works is as a woman's used up menstrual rags when placed before Him. If you are relying on yourself and how good a Christian you are to "get into heaven", then you are missing the entire point of salvation. You are missing everything about Jesus.

Why did Jesus ever come? Because of God's great grace. Because God loved this world, Jesus died. And it wasn't even that "God loved the world ENOUGH..." John 3:16 does not say, "For God loved the world enough, that He gave His only begotten Son..." Oh no, It says, "For God SO loved the world..." His love was so overwhelming, so beyond anything we could ever even imagine or really even ever put to words. For God SO loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, and that whoever would believe on Him would not perish, but have eternal life".

Interesting that the very words from Jesus did not mention being a "good little boy" to get into heaven. He only said, "Believe". Now, I know...James says that "faith without works is dead". The good works MUST come with the faith. But the good works do not come to make you saved, they come because you are saved. In fact, the passage I posted above from Ephesians says that we are His workmanship, created in Jesus for good works, that we should walk in them. The good works should be happening...but not to save us, or to keep us saved, but rather, because we ARE saved. God says it is in Jesus that we do the good works, it is because of Jesus that we do the good works, it is by Jesus that we do the good works, it is all about Jesus. After you have worked and made it to heaven, are you going to stand before the Throne, and declare: "'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'" If you think for even a minute that you are going to boast before God about what awesome things YOU have done, even in His Name...well, go read what happens to them. It is in Matthew 7.

The moment you begin to look at the "good things" you have done, you have taken your eyes off of Jesus. Read Hebrews 12:1-2...

Hebrews 12:1-2 ESV "Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God."

When you start looking at how good you are, you take your eyes off of Jesus, who Paul says we should be "looking to". It is Him. It was always Him. It will be Him. It will always be Him. It is not Christopher Paul Beller who saved himself with a little bit of help from Jesus. It will not be Christopher Paul Beller who will keep himself saved with a little bit of help from Jesus. I cannot do it, other than the part that God has demanded from me, and that is "Believe".

You also asked: "Do you think that evil works will send people to Hell?"

Let me ask you this question: Why do you seem to be trying to figure out how much you can do, but still stay saved? Why do you keep asking that question? Why does it seem that you are trying to find out what we can do, but still "make it to heaven"? Because that is what that question sounds like. "How bad can I be, but still be saved?" You see, it really should not be about that. Now, the Church has made it about that. But here is what I have discovered, very recently. The more time I spend with Jesus. The more time I spend walking with Him, talking with Him, and just being with Him...the more I want HIM. The more I want Him, and the less I want sin. This discussion should never be about a license to sin. Rather, it should always be about living life with Jesus. Our life should reflect the grace of God. We were saved by grace. But grace has become a dirty word on this board lately. And to me, that is shameful.

Now, will evil works send people to hell? I know what the Bible says in regards to that...but I will also answer with this:

John 3:18-21 ESV Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God."

Jesus says, very clearly, why people are condemned. It is because they do not believe in Him. Actually, this passage very clearly describes what it is that I believe about what sends people to Hell. They do evil works because they do not believe. They are condemned because they do not believe. Their names are not written in the Book of Life, because they do not believe. And according to Revelation 20:15...

"And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

It is all about WHO you know...not WHAT you do. An interesting note (because I am sure you will bring it up), Revelation 20:12 says, "And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done." Note that there were books opened up, and then there was the Book of Life opened up. The dead were judged by what was written in the books. But even that judgement is not what sent them to hell. It was the fact that their "names were not written in the Book of Life". Again, it is all about Jesus. It is not about what you do, it is about who you know. If we, the Church, would only let Him reveal Himself, instead of pointing our fingers at everyone, the question: "What can I be after I am saved, to stay saved, and make it to heaven?" would not be asked much. Instead, the question would be: "What must I do to be saved?" And with that, the answer is very simple: Believe on Jesus.

I know that Dake taught a "good works salvation", or at least, that is how it is preached on here. I disagree with that. When I say, "I am against works", I mean that I am against us working to be saved. Because we cannot work to be saved. We cannot work to stay saved. Again, it is all about Him. Why do you think we will be casting our crowns before Him?

Revelation 4:9-11 ESV And whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to him who is seated on the throne, who lives forever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before him who is seated on the throne and worship him who lives forever and ever. They cast their crowns before the throne, saying, "Worthy are you, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created."

(Dake also states that the 24 elders are reprensentative of the raptured saints, the Church). Why will cast our crowns before the throne? I believe it is because the realization is, and will be...it is not about us. It is not how good we are. It is not what we did. It is not what we think we did, or what we thought we should have done. Our good works were created by Him, in Him, so that we should walk in them, in Him.

Let me reiterate....It is not what a good boy Christopher Paul Beller was. Should good works be the way of my life? Yes, because I am a believer. But am I saved because God owes me salvation because I was a good boy? You better believe I will answer with a resounding NO.

The Lord asked me the other morning, "What will your legacy be when you are gone?" Interesting question...when I am in the casket, and the preacher is giving a testimony of my life...what will he say? Will he say I was a good man? A good person? I helped people in need? I was a good husband, perhaps? All those things are good...but even a sinner can do all of that. What legacy will I leave behind for my kids? Will they remember me for the silly things I did, the time I spent with them? What will my legacy be? I hope and pray that my legacy would be: Chris loved Jesus. Let that be put on my tombstone: Chris loved Jesus. Let my kids remember that "Daddy loved Jesus". Let my testimony ring, "Chris loved Jesus." I want THAT to be my legacy. Not all of these "good works"...but that I visibly loved the One who saved me. And the funny thing about that? The Bible says that we love Him BECAUSE He first loved us. Even my love for Him is not based off of me. It is still, even my love for Him, is still because of...HIM.

Should the Christian do good works? Yes
Is the Christian saved because of His good works? No
Can the Christian stay saved because of His good works? No
Can evil works send a person to hell? Short answer, Yes. Long answer, it is because they do evil works because they do not believe, and because they do not believe, they will be judged according to their works, and after that judgement, they are then cast into the Lake of Fire BECAUSE their names are not in the Book of Life.

Hi Chris my friend,

Sorry to say it sounds like you have drank the kool-aid. (big smile)

I think John would disagree with you.

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Our works show our salvation.

We cannot get saved and then live like the Devil and make it in. That is no salvation at all.

[cpbeller]

Umm...that is what I said. We do works because we are saved, not to be saved. Again, we cannot save ourselves. To think otherwise is foolishness.

And all that I wrote, and your conclusion is that I drank the kool aid? What kool aid have I drunk?

I have said my salvation is all, completely, based on Jesus. You seem to be one of those who wish us to be under the law, when the Bible declares us to be under grace (oh, I know, there's that dirty word again).

If you really want to live according to the law, then stand in judgment according to the law. Because, afterall, if you are guilty of breaking one part of the law, then you are guilty of breaking it all.

I will stick with what Paul said in Ephesians 2:8-10.

You say John would disagree with me. I doubt that. I do not see where I have stated anything contrary to John. But, a "works - based salvation" is contrary to the whole of the New Testament.

[luchnia]

This topic seems to have gotten derailed :)

I run into "grace-ites" at times and I pose a question for them to ponder.

Here it is: Can grace save you without belief on the truth?

Scripture rings true that grace simply cannot save one without belief on the truth, so there is a work that man must do to attain salvation. From Word we see that it is through faith that man gets to grace. I would question any one that says he can get to grace without faith. You could state it like this, Jesus never saved any man without man exercising the work of belief/faith.

[bibleman]

Umm...that is what I said. We do works because we are saved, not to be saved. Again, we cannot save ourselves. To think otherwise is foolishness.

And all that I wrote, and your conclusion is that I drank the kool aid? What kool aid have I drunk?

I have said my salvation is all, completely, based on Jesus. You seem to be one of those who wish us to be under the law, when the Bible declares us to be under grace (oh, I know, there's that dirty word again).

If you really want to live according to the law, then stand in judgment according to the law. Because, afterall, if you are guilty of breaking one part of the law, then you are guilty of breaking it all.

I will stick with what Paul said in Ephesians 2:8-10.

You say John would disagree with me. I doubt that. I do not see where I have stated anything contrary to John. But, a "works - based salvation" is contrary to the whole of the New Testament.

Hi Chris,

Of course the law of Moses has been done away in Christ. But that does not mean the LAW of Jesus or Paul or the New Testament has been done away. It has NOT we are still obligated to keep all the laws of the NT.

The kool-aid that you have drank is the hyper grace kool-aid, that is what I was jokingly referring to.

BUT... Let me see if I get this right.

You believed that we get saved and that after salvation we do not have to continue in good works to keep us saved! I believe that is what you stated above.

So then based on this line of thinking we could get saved, then become a fornicator and homosexual and since we had gotten saved one time in life... these sins would not take us to Hell.... In fact because we got saved one time in life we would as a fornicator and homosexual go singing into the pearly gates of Heaven!

Right?

[macca]

Umm...that is what I said. We do works because we are saved, not to be saved. Again, we cannot save ourselves. To think otherwise is foolishness.

And all that I wrote, and your conclusion is that I drank the kool aid? What kool aid have I drunk?

I have said my salvation is all, completely, based on Jesus. You seem to be one of those who wish us to be under the law, when the Bible declares us to be under grace (oh, I know, there's that dirty word again).

If you really want to live according to the law, then stand in judgment according to the law. Because, afterall, if you are guilty of breaking one part of the law, then you are guilty of breaking it all.

I will stick with what Paul said in Ephesians 2:8-10.


You say John would disagree with me. I doubt that. I do not see where I have stated anything contrary to John. But, a "works - based salvation" is contrary to the whole of the New Testament.

Hi Chris,

Of course the law of Moses has been done away in Christ. But that does not mean the LAW of Jesus or Paul or the New Testament has been done away. It has NOT we are still obligated to keep all the laws of the NT.

The kool-aid that you have drank is the hyper grace kool-aid, that is what I was jokingly referring to.

BUT... Let me see if I get this right.

You believed that we get saved and that after salvation we do not have to continue in good works to keep us saved! I believe that is what you stated above.

So then based on this line of thinking we could get saved, then become a fornicator and homosexual and since we had gotten saved one time in life... these sins would not take us to Hell.... In fact because we got saved one time in life we would as a fornicator and homosexual go singing into the pearly gates of Heaven!

Right?

That is sickening Leon.

I am sure Chris does not believe that junk.

This has degenerated into madness

macca

[luchnia]

But how can we do that when we are so quick to point our little fingers at everyone shouting them into hell?

I did finally watch the video and really don't have much to say about it. I do think it would fall on deaf ears concerning those he speaks about. People have allowed even the appearance of evil to consume them these days. When I was in darkness what this man says would mean zilch to me.

Pointing fingers or preaching one into hell might make for a thread and topic on its own. As I think about discernment when dealing with others many things come to mind. I find love of God has many facets and one being a knowledge of truth that brings freedom. I think many people that evangelize today are more concerned at throwing spears at others (maybe shouting them into hell?) then they are speaking the truth to them that might bring them to repentance and salvation. This shows me the speaker does not have a knowledge of the truth in certain areas and should not speak about such.

For me, the question is how would Paul, Jesus, Phillip, Stephen, etc. address one in sin? I think most agree that repent or burn is a gospel teaching of Love, yet how is that message delivered with tact? Do we say "Go and sin no more" or what do we speak? I find this somewhat perplexing at times because of the variables that should be weighted in each situation. I wonder would some of Jesus' words been different had the situation been different with the prostitute? He obviously knew she would perish had she kept on sinning.

Our heart's desire should be that the message get through and I perceive that delivery of that message is of prime importance. Bubbling up in my mind is that word "discernment" once again!