Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ What is faith?

[cpbeller]

ok...how about this. You keep saying that we mere humans have no right to question whether or not God would keep His covenant...but, what about Jesus? God did not make the New Covenant with simple man. He made it with The Man, Christ Jesus, who represented both God and Man in the covenant. If the Father does not keep His covenant, and refuses to fulfill His promises that are in the covenant, then He is not keeping His covenant with Jesus (and we are IN CHRIST, so we are partakers fully of that covenant).

I agree with you, God WANTS to fulfill His promises...no question, no doubt. But in light of the covenant, in light of the "legal" aspect of God making that covenant...He must keep it. If He does not, He is then breaking the covenant, not so much with us (though, by extenstion, He would be), but with the God-Man, Jesus.

You continue to make this claim that God does not have to do anything. I say (along with most everyone else on here) disagree, and I am saying, God must, because if He does not keep that covenant, He would be a sinner who does not keep His covenant, a "covenant-breaker" (and you have said God could never be that). If God could never be that, then why do you take such issue with the phrase, "God must keep His covenant"?

You seem to really enjoy using a lot of religious double-talk on here, Ed. And that kind of stuff causes ppl to really be confused about what God will do. There are too many Christians who doubt God will fulfill the covenant...and with your teaching that God DOES NOT HAVE TO keep His Word, no wonder there is so much doubt and faithlessness in Christianity. You claim "old-school holiness"...but all I see is "old-school stubborness" in not seeing the errors in your doctrine.

The bottom line is this...God made a covenant with Jesus, and God cannot break that covenant. It is not a matter of "God does not want to break it", but that God cannot break it. You keep going on about God being able to do everything...but yet, you want to proclaim God CANNOT lie. So, what is it? God can wipe out existence and re-do the covenant (which you have stated before, even if you might deny it now), or God made that covenant, and just like according to Psalm 15:4, "He that sweareth to his own hurt, and changeth not."

But, hey, you go on and believe what you want to believe, Ed...

[Justaned]

ok...how about this. You keep saying that we mere humans have no right to question whether or not God would keep His covenant...but, what about Jesus? God did not make the New Covenant with simple man. He made it with The Man, Christ Jesus, who represented both God and Man in the covenant. If the Father does not keep His covenant, and refuses to fulfill His promises that are in the covenant, then He is not keeping His covenant with Jesus (and we are IN CHRIST, so we are partakers fully of that covenant).

I agree with you, God WANTS to fulfill His promises...no question, no doubt. But in light of the covenant, in light of the "legal" aspect of God making that covenant...He must keep it. If He does not, He is then breaking the covenant, not so much with us (though, by extenstion, He would be), but with the God-Man, Jesus.

You continue to make this claim that God does not have to do anything. I say (along with most everyone else on here) disagree, and I am saying, God must, because if He does not keep that covenant, He would be a sinner who does not keep His covenant, a "covenant-breaker" (and you have said God could never be that). If God could never be that, then why do you take such issue with the phrase, "God must keep His covenant"?

You seem to really enjoy using a lot of religious double-talk on here, Ed. And that kind of stuff causes ppl to really be confused about what God will do. There are too many Christians who doubt God will fulfill the covenant...and with your teaching that God DOES NOT HAVE TO keep His Word, no wonder there is so much doubt and faithlessness in Christianity. You claim "old-school holiness"...but all I see is "old-school stubborness" in not seeing the errors in your doctrine.

The bottom line is this...God made a covenant with Jesus, and God cannot break that covenant. It is not a matter of "God does not want to break it", but that God cannot break it. You keep going on about God being able to do everything...but yet, you want to proclaim God CANNOT lie. So, what is it? God can wipe out existence and re-do the covenant (which you have stated before, even if you might deny it now), or God made that covenant, and just like according to Psalm 15:4, "He that sweareth to his own hurt, and changeth not."

But, hey, you go on and believe what you want to believe, Ed...

Chris
First let us be clear I did not say

You keep saying that we mere humans have no right to question whether or not God would keep His covenant...but, what about Jesus?

Therefore that makes the rest of your post invalid as pertaining to me or what I did say.

[bibleman]

ok...how about this. You keep saying that we mere humans have no right to question whether or not God would keep His covenant...but, what about Jesus? God did not make the New Covenant with simple man. He made it with The Man, Christ Jesus, who represented both God and Man in the covenant. If the Father does not keep His covenant, and refuses to fulfill His promises that are in the covenant, then He is not keeping His covenant with Jesus (and we are IN CHRIST, so we are partakers fully of that covenant).

I agree with you, God WANTS to fulfill His promises...no question, no doubt. But in light of the covenant, in light of the "legal" aspect of God making that covenant...He must keep it. If He does not, He is then breaking the covenant, not so much with us (though, by extenstion, He would be), but with the God-Man, Jesus.

You continue to make this claim that God does not have to do anything. I say (along with most everyone else on here) disagree, and I am saying, God must, because if He does not keep that covenant, He would be a sinner who does not keep His covenant, a "covenant-breaker" (and you have said God could never be that). If God could never be that, then why do you take such issue with the phrase, "God must keep His covenant"?

You seem to really enjoy using a lot of religious double-talk on here, Ed. And that kind of stuff causes ppl to really be confused about what God will do. There are too many Christians who doubt God will fulfill the covenant...and with your teaching that God DOES NOT HAVE TO keep His Word, no wonder there is so much doubt and faithlessness in Christianity. You claim "old-school holiness"...but all I see is "old-school stubborness" in not seeing the errors in your doctrine.

The bottom line is this...God made a covenant with Jesus, and God cannot break that covenant. It is not a matter of "God does not want to break it", but that God cannot break it. You keep going on about God being able to do everything...but yet, you want to proclaim God CANNOT lie. So, what is it? God can wipe out existence and re-do the covenant (which you have stated before, even if you might deny it now), or God made that covenant, and just like according to Psalm 15:4, "He that sweareth to his own hurt, and changeth not."

But, hey, you go on and believe what you want to believe, Ed...

Chris
First let us be clear I did not say

You keep saying that we mere humans have no right to question whether or not God would keep His covenant...but, what about Jesus?

Therefore that makes the rest of your post invalid as pertaining to me or what I did say.

Sorry Ed,

But Chris has you pegged to a tee!

It is a shame that you cannot see it.

First you saw Jesus has a sin nature and now God does not have to keep HIS covenant.

PLEASE, my friend, take a look at your beliefs and allow the Holy Spirit to bring loving and knowledgeable correction.

[cpbeller]

Seriously, Ed? You never said that?

What about this qoute:

"My question is to who would God answer?"

Now, this was in reply to my post about how God must keep His covenant.

Or, what about this one:

"And who is qualified and appointed the judge of God to make that call? Who would say God is not God? If God answers to no one how would this be a motivating factor to God? God will do it because God wants to do it not because He has to because He doesn't "have to". "

Again, the discussion was how God must keep his covenant.

Maybe this one will jingle-jangle your memory of what you have said:

"God can do all things. Who would judge? You? Do you think you could tell if a being intelligent enough to create you told a lie? It is prideful to even think you have the capability and shows one's total ignorance of the abilities of God.
Would God lie? He said He doesn't and that is good enough for me."

Again, we are discussing how God must keep His covenant. You are still, in all three of these qoutes, saying, "who are we to question whether or not God will keep His covenant".

You want another qoute? Ok...

"The idea God has to do anything is an antithesis to the meaning of God. For man to presume to be able to judge God is both prideful and heretical. For man to try to force an idea by saying God "has to" is blasphemy."

So, there are FOUR qoutes from you in this very thread (and it didn't take me very long to find them...just read your posts). So, what about my post is invalid?

[cpbeller]

oh, and Ed...YOU are the one leaving it open to debate, by saying, "God does not have to keep His covenant." You can follow that up with whatever you want to follow that up with, but just by you saying "God does not have to keep His covenant" leaves room for the false belief that maybe, just maybe, this one time, God will change His mind and NOT keep it. That opens the door to doubt and unbelief in God.

Again, you can believe whatever it is you want to believe...but it is wrong. Simple as that.

[cpbeller]

Another point...

Did God HAVE TO make that covenant? No, He didn't have to. But He chose to do so...and in doing that, and making that covenant, He is bound now to fulfill it. Does God WANT to fulfill his promises? Sure...Of course. There is both the "love aspect" (God desires to fulfill his promises) and there is a "legal aspect" (God is bound legally, by His own accord, to fulfill his promises). You refuse to accept the legal aspect of it. God chose to bind Himself in the covenant...and therefore, He is bound, by His Own law, to fulfill it, when the condition(s) are met.

You want to only refer to the "love aspect"...fine, great, I get it, God is Love. Never have I said anything other than that. But there is still the legal side of it, the side that you are fighting against so much.

The fact of the matter is this...God has promised, and even went so far as to bind Himself, and will not, cannot, break that covenant. No matter what.

[Justaned]

Once again I did not say God does not have to keep his covenant.

I posed a question of, what would happen if God didn't keep his promise?

The point is you are totally missing what I'm saying.
When a person says God "must" or God "has to" they are assuming a position that is not theirs to assume.

God is God and He must be respected. The correct statement would be, God will keep His promises, or it is God's will and desire to keep His promises.

I further said if you can't see the difference between these two positions I will never be able to explain it to you.

[bibleman]

Once again I did not say God does not have to keep his covenant.

I posed a question of, what would happen if God didn't keep his promise?

The point is you are totally missing what I'm saying.
When a person says God "must" or God "has to" they are assuming a position that is not theirs to assume.

God is God and He must be respected. The correct statement would be, God will keep His promises, or it is God's will and desire to keep His promises.

I further said if you can't see the difference between these two positions I will never be able to explain it to you.

Ed,

Why not make it very simple. Let's cut to the chase.

Does God have to keep his covenant?

Leon: Yes!

Ed: yes or no?

[Justaned]

Once again I did not say God does not have to keep his covenant.

I posed a question of, what would happen if God didn't keep his promise?

The point is you are totally missing what I'm saying.
When a person says God "must" or God "has to" they are assuming a position that is not theirs to assume.

God is God and He must be respected. The correct statement would be, God will keep His promises, or it is God's will and desire to keep His promises.

I further said if you can't see the difference between these two positions I will never be able to explain it to you.

Ed,

Why not make it very simple. Let's cut to the chase.

Does God have to keep his covenant?

Leon: Yes!

Ed: yes or no?

Bibleman
You are still missing it.

Will God keep His covenant?

Leon: I won't answer on the grounds it doesn't trip Ed up and I'm way to prideful to allow that.

Ed: Yes absolutely!

[bibleman]

Once again I did not say God does not have to keep his covenant.

I posed a question of, what would happen if God didn't keep his promise?

The point is you are totally missing what I'm saying.
When a person says God "must" or God "has to" they are assuming a position that is not theirs to assume.

God is God and He must be respected. The correct statement would be, God will keep His promises, or it is God's will and desire to keep His promises.

I further said if you can't see the difference between these two positions I will never be able to explain it to you.

Ed,

Why not make it very simple. Let's cut to the chase.

Does God have to keep his covenant?

Leon: Yes!

Ed: yes or no?

Bibleman
You are still missing it.

Will God keep His covenant?

Leon: I won't answer on the grounds it doesn't trip Ed up and I'm way to prideful to allow that.

Ed: Yes absolutely!

Hi Ed,

Will God keep His covenant?

Leon: Yes.

Now your turn.

MUST God keep His covenant?

Leon: Yes.

Ed: ???