Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Baptizing Homosexuals

[macca]

I believe the world has confused "love' with what holiness is.

The church has watered down the holiness truth of the bible to the point that people believe love is the answer to everything,

love without holiness is selfish.

macca

[Justaned]

I believe the world has confused "love' with what holiness is.

The church has watered down the holiness truth of the bible to the point that people believe love is the answer to everything,

love without holiness is selfish.

macca

AMEN!

[victoryword]

Some people on here can be very arrogant in their replies.

That can be the nature of forums sometimes Pastor. Sometimes people write a post without the intention of being arrogant but when it is read without seeing the person's face or hearing the emotion in their voice it appears to be arrogant. Sometimes people find it easier to be arrogant on a forum but would never show such behavior when actually talking to a person. And then some people just are arrogant.

But don't let any of that stop you from either sharing the wisdom that God has given you on this forum that we all need or failing to ask questions so that you can benefit from the wisdom of others.

[branham1965]

if im being referred to.its not my intention to be arrogant.im sorry Pastor Stroup.

[tomas555]

A shorter one video

[video][/video]



Longer and better, uncovering lies and dangers of homosexuality

[video][/video]

[Justaned]

I'm not exactly sure who Pastor Stroup was referring to or if he meant all of us.

I never thought of legal ramifications when I offered my opinion but I think if handled correctly even those could be minimized. Citing established church doctrine would almost certainly prevent any individual legal repercussion. If the doctrine was well documented as tenor of faith then any challenge would be violation of church and state.

Without getting in over my head on legal matters, that I know little about, one could also take a stand that would prevent them from baptizing a homosexual couple based on personal interpretation of the scripture. Based on the fact that God abhors homosexuality thus a homosexuality is contrary to God and the person is considered a sinner. This would only work if in all past, present and future baptisms the person to be baptized was asked by the Pastor if they were saved and living according to the teaching of the Bible. Some pastors never ask the person to be baptized anything and if this was the case the argument could be made you were only asking us because you knew we were homosexuals, hence discrimination.

[Michael Evans]

Hi. I was a pastor for 17 years. I had a bisexual brother who died of AIDS in '98 but died saved. Just a word on the most important issue here, which I believe is the salvation of these two ladies.
My brother was saved as a teenager at a Billy Graham crusade here in Melbourne in '69. He was thus the first person in the family to be born again. We were Anglican (Episcopalian). Some in this denomination are evangelical and Spirit-filled but not the congregation I was in. I got dramatically saved after a brief foray into some frightening 'new age' experiences at the age of 21 which sent me running to some Spirit-filled Christians for help. My mother got saved at the same time as me. Of my other family members, my oldest brother David (who was not living a godly lifestyle and was one of the sad large percentage of Billy Graham converts who don't move on with the Lord but drift back into the world) genuinely believed my story and came to a few meetings with me. I told him that homosexuality was a bondage which Jesus could deliver him from, but he did not wish to lose that part of his life (he was living with a woman at this time). I went to Bible College and pioneered a church in a suburb of Melbourne. When I heard of my brother's illness, my congregation prayed with me for his salvation and healing and received what I believe was a genuine word from God telling me to "tell him he IS my son". I mentioned this to my mother and she reminded me of his participation in the altar call at the 1969 crusade.
I then wrote to my brother (living with a man in Holland) and sent him material on healing and spoke of the prodigal son. He appreciated my concern but did not respond as I'd hoped. I sensed the Lord telling me that I had been trying to do the Holy Ghost's job and just to show him the love of Jesus. On the phone I asked him if he'd like to be filled with the Holy Ghost, as he believed in Jesus and I felt having the Holy Ghost in him in a greater measure would help him to receive revelation and to be convicted with the godly conviction which leads to repentance and life. He was happy for me to pray with him for this. I left him in the Lord's hands and sensed God telling me He would be taking him home within 12 months. I wrote to him in that time and gave him the idea of asking God to take him home if his suffering became too great and asking the Lord-as we do at Communion time- to show him anything he wanted to sort out with him before he left. After he died I heard that this last letter of mine meant a lot to him. The day he passed away I sought the Lord and I believe He told me "he is so happy...now he knows". I am not sure whether he fully understood while on earth that his same-sex urges were not put there by the Lord so this may have been one of the things he came to "know" once he got to Heaven. However, if I'd focused on this sin in his life and waited to attempt to bring him back to Jesus until it was repented of, things may not have worked out the way they did.My father put his trust in Jesus in hospital two days before he died and no doubt left here without repenting of many of his sins. As we grow as believers, the Spirit shows us things and convicts us of them ,helping us to get free of wrong behaviour/beliefs in our lives over time.
I would never baptize someone who I was not sure was born again. Nor would I baptize someone living in sin (although I know of pastors who hold baby dedication ceremonies for couples who are unmarried, something I also would not do).I would probably be led not to bring up the sinful lifestyle of these ladies but rather, allow them to sit under the Word for a season or talk to them privately in order to present the gospel to them. To be saved, one simply has to confess one is a sinner for whom Christ died, which takes in all of us. I would then seek to get them baptized in the Holy Ghost and get some good teaching into them regarding who they are in Christ. If they asked me directly, I would tell them that all sex outside of the marriage covenant between a man and woman is classified as unclean and fornication and that God will give them revelation of this if they honestly ask Him to show them from His Word. As they learn to walk ruled by their new nature as born again people, they will desire to be free of this lifestyle. The ministry of Sy Rogers (who was about to get a sex change when he got saved) would be a good one to refer them to.
If they did not bring up the issue, after a period of time I would bring it up with them and let them know that a choice needs to be made. If-after giving their hearts to the Lord and hearing the Word of God- they chose to persist in this lifestyle I would let them know that they cannot remain in the church but our doors are open to them should they receive the scriptures in this area and live separately as sisters in Jesus (ie. friends). I can understand that some ministers would not knowingly have people in their church living this lifestyle for any period of time, in which case counseling the women privately and doing the utmost to get them saved would -I believe-still be the best way to go. Some saved people take a while to let go of sin-habits (eg. some smokers get free immediately, others struggle). If after the ministry of the Word and doing my utmost to bring them to Jesus these ladies were still rebellious, I would let them go their way and just continue to pray for them. I don't think they would have any hope of being convicted and set free if the Word and the love of Jesus was not shown to them for a season. Teaching on what water baptism symbolizes would also be valuable for them to learn about as it would stress the identification with Christ which we make in His death, ie. the old life being gone and the new creation taking place (in our spirit man) and how we live this out by mortifying the deeds of the flesh (which still seek to manifest themselves).
This is a long answer. Admittedly I don't know these women or where they are at with the Lord. Seeking to be fully water baptized is a good thing to desire to do. It shows a commitment to Jesus of some kind which one is prepared to declare publicly. It would be tragic to see people like this being handled without tact, care and the love of God and feeling rejected by God and His people.

[pastor stroup]

I appreciate everyone in here and thank you for your advice and wisdom- all of you! Your scriptural and legal advice is appreciated. And the videos were great. And thank you for giving me the benefit of the doubt realizing that I wasn't asking about this in ignorance or foolishness. I pray that we all stay humble before one another and remember that we are all on the same team. Maybe I could've clarified the point of my asking was to receive from your wisdom or maybe because some of you had dealt with this already. I guess it was a new thought and I didn't realize that. Please forgive me for not being as clear as I could've been. Love you brothers!

[pastor stroup]

Part of what make this situation unique Is that these two women have adopted children together. They have a "civil union" and believe they are born again. Do they repent and break up their "family" and do visitation...? This is a legal civil union. I want to be able to offer them the truth of the Word and help them recover their life if they are willing to repent and live holy lives unto the Lord. My wife shared with them that I want to visit with then concerning their request. We told them they were welcome at Vertical Church but we wanted to sit down and talk to them about why they want to be baptized. We feel it's so they can ease their conscious if a "minister" will approve their preference of lifestyle by baptizing them in water and be able to pin it on us. We are smarter than that, we just want to protect our body of believers at the same time from any legal issues If they ever come about. I don't think it would because so far two other churches rejected their request. They don't seem like they have an agenda against the church, they just want to feel accepted. They were raised Baptist so they don't understand why they can't be accepted and involved just because they are lesbians. Anyway, there's some more info for you all to ponder on. :)

[branham1965]

you are right Pastor.

Some people on here can be very arrogant in their replies.

That can be the nature of forums sometimes Pastor. Sometimes people write a post without the intention of being arrogant but when it is read without seeing the person's face or hearing the emotion in their voice it appears to be arrogant. Sometimes people find it easier to be arrogant on a forum but would never show such behavior when actually talking to a person. And then some people just are arrogant.

But don't let any of that stop you from either sharing the wisdom that God has given you on this forum that we all need or failing to ask questions so that you can benefit from the wisdom of others.