Dake Bible Discussion BoardLiteral or not?

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macca
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Literal or not?

Post by macca » Tue Jun 04, 2013 5:44 am

1 Corinthians 15:32;
If after the manner of men I have fought with wild beasts at Ephesus,

Did Paul fight in the arena against wild beasts or not?

macca



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Justaned
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Re: Literal or not?

Post by Justaned » Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:26 am

The wild beast was believed to be figurative. Much like the passage in in 2 Pet 2:12 and Jude 1:10.

However there is no way of knowing if Paul might be referring to some attack of wild beast upon his person, or that he might have been forced into an arena and made to fight wild animals. The latter is very unlikely since Paul was a Roman citizen and as such was mostly exempt from such.

When we read the passage in context it become more evident that Paul was talking figuratively about wrangling with unbelieving over the truth of Jesus Christ.

In final analysis every commentary I checked comes back to the conclusion that the "wild beasts" were figurative and not literally wild animals.



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branham1965
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Re: Literal or not?

Post by branham1965 » Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:05 am

macca
I believe Saint Paul was speaking of his severe persecutions see 2 Cor 1:8ff,6:5ff,11:23ff.
''BEWARE OF DOGS ...........
BEWARE OF EVIL WORKERS ,BEWARE OF THE CONCISION." PHILIPPIANS 3:2

REVED
I dont think brave Christians exercised any imagined authority over the ravenous powerful lions and the wild animals.CHRISTIANS were brutally killed in the Roman arenas. :agrue:



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Re: Literal or not?

Post by Ironman » Tue Jun 04, 2013 5:33 pm

macca wrote:1 Corinthians 15:32;
If after the manner of men I have fought with wild beasts at Ephesus,

Did Paul fight in the arena against wild beasts or not?

macca
Figurative, Paul is not literally fighting wild beasts in an arena. Paul here is referring to his fight with the beastly men at Ephesus (Acts 19:28-31). Such men are called beasts ("One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies." Titus 1:12); "(But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;" 2 Peter 2:12; ("But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves." Jude 1:10). Paul does not refer to having been in combat with wild beasts in an arena, when naming all his hardships?


Galatians 4: 16, Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

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Re: Literal or not?

Post by macca » Thu Jun 06, 2013 6:02 am

I tend to believe Paul was speaking of a literal fight with beasts in the arena.

The language he uses makes the statement true, "in the manner of men" Hos autos and "fight with beasts " Theromacheo is used only here.

Just because its not listed elsewhere is no proof that it is not fact. How could they list everything that befell Paul in his work for the Lord?

Being a roman citizen did not stop Nero chopping Paul's head off, so whats so strange about Paul forced into the arena while Nero was ruling ?

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Re: Literal or not?

Post by Justaned » Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:49 am

macca wrote:I tend to believe Paul was speaking of a literal fight with beasts in the arena.

The language he uses makes the statement true, "in the manner of men" Hos autos and "fight with beasts " Theromacheo is used only here.

Just because its not listed elsewhere is no proof that it is not fact. How could they list everything that befell Paul in his work for the Lord?

Being a roman citizen did not stop Nero chopping Paul's head off, so whats so strange about Paul forced into the arena while Nero was ruling ?

MACCA
This is Ephesus not Rome and the Emperor Nero was not there to make the call.

No Roman governor would make the call on his own.

Secondly the fights with animals was most usually to the death of the person. It was a form of capital punishment not a gladiator fight. Even the gladiator fights weren't as portrayed in Movies and TV. Most were nothing more than mass murder by trained professionals of people with little or no experience in combat. Blood lust.



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Re: Literal or not?

Post by macca » Thu Jun 06, 2013 10:27 pm

I was wondering how many of the commentarys that say that this is an allegory also say that Paul was a sick and weak individual with * eyes?

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Re: Literal or not?

Post by Justaned » Thu Jun 06, 2013 10:29 pm

macca wrote:I was wondering how many of the commentarys that say that this is an allegory also say that Paul was a sick and weak individual with * eyes?

macca
I think most do since Paul himself said he had eye problems if you care to see them.



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Re: Literal or not?

Post by Ironman » Fri Jun 07, 2013 2:44 am

Justaned wrote:
macca wrote:I was wondering how many of the commentarys that say that this is an allegory also say that Paul was a sick and weak individual with * eyes?

macca
I think most do since Paul himself said he had eye problems if you care to see them.
I would like to, Justaned! I thought Pauls thorn in the flesh was a fallen angel sent by the devil? I dont recall ever reading Pauls eyes were a problem? Thanks!


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Re: Literal or not?

Post by titus213 » Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:01 am

I think there've been something like 30+ viewpoints as to what Paul's "thorn" actually was. . . here are what most of them boil down to:

Pain in the ear or head (Tertullian)
People who were pains like Hymenaeus and Alexander (Chrysostom)
epilepsy (M. Krenkel, J. Klausner)
eye problems (J. T. Brain)
convulsions (M. Dibelius),
sufferings caused by constant persecutions (J. Murick)
attacks of depression (H. Clavier)
the agony caused by the unbelief of his Jewish brethren
malaria (W. M. Ramsay, E. B. Allo)
the memory of the people he had executed when he persecuted the church (A. Osiander, A Schlatter).

The typical line of reasoning for it being eye problems goes like this:

We know that Paul suffered severe physical trials, II Corinthians 11

In Gal. 4: 13-15 the Apostle referred to a physical ailment evidently connected with his eyes

After his vision of the glory of the risen Savior at his conversion, which he described as "above the brightness of the sun"(Acts 26: 13), and which rendered him blind for three days (Acts 9: 9), his eyes may have been left permanently weak.

Satan could have aggravated this condition, for the Word of God reveals that with the Lord's permission, he can affect the body.



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