Dake Bible Discussion BoardNo One Saved Before Jesus' Death, Burial, & Resurrection?

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brodave
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Re: No One Saved Before Jesus' Death, Burial, & Resurrection

Post by brodave » Thu May 30, 2013 9:41 pm

Luke 7:50 And He said to the woman, THY FAITH HATH SAVED THEE;GO IN PEACE. Before Jesus was raised from the dead people were saved but not born again. In John 20:22 the disciples were born again. On the day of Pentecost and from then on all who receive Jesus Christ are born again.



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Ironman
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Re: No One Saved Before Jesus' Death, Burial, & Resurrection

Post by Ironman » Thu May 30, 2013 11:30 pm

Justaned wrote:
Ironman wrote:
Justaned wrote:
fatherfisher wrote: Again righeousness and Salvation are two very different things.

Wrong again.

Let's make it real simple:
the Bible knows nothing of a person who is unrighteous but is saved.
The Bible knows nothing of a person who is righteous but unsaved.

The Bible has no such category as a saved unbeliever.
The Bible has no such category as an unsaved believer.

You want to invent a new kind of person, one who is a righteous believer but is either unsaved or partially saved.

No such animal.
The Bible did know of a righeous unsaved person. The Old Testament saints did not have victory over death. When they died a natural death they did not move on to eternal life in Heaven, they were held captive in Hades. It required Jesus to give them that victory before it could be realized. Thus they died rigtheous but still in control of death (unsaved).
Enoch, (And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. Gen. 5:24), and Elijah (And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. 2 Kings 2:11) both alive and in Heaven to this day!

As I said before, if they were not saved men why would God translate them to Heaven? Unsaved sinners do not enter Heaven!
Do you think Enoch might have been an exception rather than the rule? :crazyeyes:
Just what is the rule apart from a set of explicit or understood regulations or principles governing conduct within a particular activity or sphere? +goofy


Galatians 4: 16, Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

titus213
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Re: No One Saved Before Jesus' Death, Burial, & Resurrection

Post by titus213 » Fri May 31, 2013 6:56 am

Before Jesus was raised from the dead people were saved but not born again.

No, OT saints were born again. No one can have saving faith without being regenerate. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh" was just as true in OT times as in Jesus' own day. Passages like Deuteronomy 30.6 define the Spirit-produced new birth in all its essential features, and refer not to some future time in the NT but to the contemporary OT day and age. Later, the Psalms taught the need for and reality of the new birth in passages like Psalm 24.3-5: "Who may climb the mountain of the Lord? Who may stand in his holy place? Only those whose hands and hearts are pure, who do not worship idols and never tell lies. They will receive the Lord’s blessing and have a right relationship with God their savior". Clearly, this purifying of hearts could not be the work of man; only God can do it. And of course still later, the prophets decleared the truth of God's working in the hearts of people by means of the new birth.

When Jesus spoke to Nicodemus about the new birth he chastised the Jewish teacher for not understanding about this teaching, presumably from the OT scriptures. When Peter writes about the new birth through the eternal, living word of God in 1 Peter 1.23-25 he teaches it from Isaiah 40. And in Romans 10 when Paul writes about the message that salvation by faith is available to all, he does so by teaching that truth from Deuternonomy 30 and Isaiah 28.

So it is worth remembering that Jesus rebuked the foolishness of the Emmaus disciples who found it so hard to believe their OT Bible, which had so clearly predicted the Messiah. He began with Moses and went right through all the prophets explaining from the OT Bible the things concerning himself. Likewise, as Paul traveled to the various synagogues as a missionary, he would preach NT truth by using the OT scriptures. God was the saving, regenerating God of the OT saint as well as us.

See Dake's comments on "Old Testament Spiritual Experiences" in the Dake Bible, including this:

"Old Testament saints and disciples of Christ had salvation (Ps. 51:12); redemption (Ps. 31:5); grace (Ps. 84:11); physical healing (Ex. 15:26); names written in heaven (Ex. 32:32-33; Lk. 10:20); the new birth (Gal. 4:28-30); conversion (Ps. 19:7); righteousness (Rom. 4); the gospel (Gal. 3:6-14; Heb. 4:2); justification (Rom. 4); holiness; (Acts 3:21; 2Pet. 1:21); pure hearts (Ps. 24:4); sanctification (Ex. 29:42-44; 31:13; Ezek. 20:2; Jn. 15:3); and many other spiritual blessings before Pentecost (Jn. 7:37-39; Acts 2:33)."



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Justaned
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Re: No One Saved Before Jesus' Death, Burial, & Resurrection

Post by Justaned » Fri May 31, 2013 9:53 am

fatherfisher wrote:Before Jesus was raised from the dead people were saved but not born again.

No, OT saints were born again. No one can have saving faith without being regenerate. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh" was just as true in OT times as in Jesus' own day. Passages like Deuteronomy 30.6 define the Spirit-produced new birth in all its essential features, and refer not to some future time in the NT but to the contemporary OT day and age. Later, the Psalms taught the need for and reality of the new birth in passages like Psalm 24.3-5: "Who may climb the mountain of the Lord? Who may stand in his holy place? Only those whose hands and hearts are pure, who do not worship idols and never tell lies. They will receive the Lord’s blessing and have a right relationship with God their savior". Clearly, this purifying of hearts could not be the work of man; only God can do it. And of course still later, the prophets decleared the truth of God's working in the hearts of people by means of the new birth.

When Jesus spoke to Nicodemus about the new birth he chastised the Jewish teacher for not understanding about this teaching, presumably from the OT scriptures. When Peter writes about the new birth through the eternal, living word of God in 1 Peter 1.23-25 he teaches it from Isaiah 40. And in Romans 10 when Paul writes about the message that salvation by faith is available to all, he does so by teaching that truth from Deuternonomy 30 and Isaiah 28.

So it is worth remembering that Jesus rebuked the foolishness of the Emmaus disciples who found it so hard to believe their OT Bible, which had so clearly predicted the Messiah. He began with Moses and went right through all the prophets explaining from the OT Bible the things concerning himself. Likewise, as Paul traveled to the various synagogues as a missionary, he would preach NT truth by using the OT scriptures. God was the saving, regenerating God of the OT saint as well as us.

See Dake's comments on "Old Testament Spiritual Experiences" in the Dake Bible, including this:

"Old Testament saints and disciples of Christ had salvation (Ps. 51:12); redemption (Ps. 31:5); grace (Ps. 84:11); physical healing (Ex. 15:26); names written in heaven (Ex. 32:32-33; Lk. 10:20); the new birth (Gal. 4:28-30); conversion (Ps. 19:7); righteousness (Rom. 4); the gospel (Gal. 3:6-14; Heb. 4:2); justification (Rom. 4); holiness; (Acts 3:21; 2Pet. 1:21); pure hearts (Ps. 24:4); sanctification (Ex. 29:42-44; 31:13; Ezek. 20:2; Jn. 15:3); and many other spiritual blessings before Pentecost (Jn. 7:37-39; Acts 2:33)."

When Jesus chastised Nicodemus for not understanding this teaching was it just Nicodemus that missed the concept or did the rest of the Jews before him? The fact that Nicodemus was a high Pharisee suggests that if anyone knew or understood the concept of being born again it would be he. Yet the concept was not only new to him it totally bewildered him. He mistakenly thought Jesus was suggestting a return to the womb. That is no little misunderstanding. That to me speaks of the totally new concept that Nicodemus was being exposed to and he was trying to grasp an understanding of it.

Okay you supply a great list of verses ripped from context but do any of them say that salvation can be achieved aside from the cross? Do any provide eternal life or must the person await the the Christ to defeat death before that is yet realized. Do any suggest a new birth, a regenerated being, a creation recreated?

If salvation could have been achieved by obedience (righteousness) faith (belief in God) then Christ's death on the cross would be unnecessary, salvation could be achieved apart from Christ. However nothing ever suggests that. In fact everything written in scripture attests to the fact that the only way to God is by way of Christ's death on the cross.

Now Old Testament saints were placed in Abraham's Bosom rather than the hot dry place to await their salvation. Now if you want to call that salvation you would be mistaken. For even they anxiously awaited the Messiah! Why? To save them from the hold of Death! Let me repeat that. To save them from the hold of Death! SALVATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



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Re: No One Saved Before Jesus' Death, Burial, & Resurrection

Post by titus213 » Fri May 31, 2013 10:06 am

If salvation could have been achieved by obedience (righteousness) faith (belief in God) then Christ's death on the cross would be unnecessary, salvation could be achieved apart from Christ. However nothing ever suggests that. In fact everything written in scripture attests to the fact that the only way to God is by way of Christ's death on the cross.

That's right. OT saints were saved by Christ's death on the cross, as they anticipated it through faith. We are saved by Christ's death on the cross, as we commemorate it through faith. They were not saved by obedience or a sort of generic belief in God any more than we are. Their righteousness, as ours, was the result of faith in Jesus and his atonement.

There is but one, unified plan of salvation through which Christ offers a redemption that is equally effective for the saints of both dispensations. The same Jesus has always been the only mediator between God and man; the same Jesus has always been the Way, Truth, and Life for anyone who comes to the Father, regardless of when they lived.



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Justaned
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Re: No One Saved Before Jesus' Death, Burial, & Resurrection

Post by Justaned » Fri May 31, 2013 10:16 am

fatherfisher wrote:If salvation could have been achieved by obedience (righteousness) faith (belief in God) then Christ's death on the cross would be unnecessary, salvation could be achieved apart from Christ. However nothing ever suggests that. In fact everything written in scripture attests to the fact that the only way to God is by way of Christ's death on the cross.

That's right. OT saints were saved by Christ's death on the cross, as they anticipated it through faith. We are saved by Christ's death on the cross, as we commemorate it through faith. They were not saved by obedience or a sort of generic belief in God any more than we are. Their righteousness, as ours, was the result of faith in Jesus and his atonement.

There is but one, unified plan of salvation through which Christ offers a redemption that is equally effective for the saints of both dispensations. The same Jesus has always been the only mediator between God and man; the same Jesus has always been the Way, Truth, and Life for anyone who comes to the Father, regardless of when they lived.

Again we disagree I say they weren't saved as such. They were put in the position that when salvation (Christ's death) was available to the world they would be in the perfect place to receive it. The fact that Jesus had to descend into Hades and preach there suggests that the saints that heard the Good News had to make a decision. Does it not?

They had the faith of coming Messiah they still had to make Jesus that Messiah in their hearts.



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Re: No One Saved Before Jesus' Death, Burial, & Resurrection

Post by titus213 » Fri May 31, 2013 10:34 am

The fact that Jesus had to descend into Hades and preach there suggests that the saints that heard the Good News had to make a decision. Does it not?

Absolutely not. He did not "preach" as in evangelize; totally different word in Greek. He went there to announce his victory, not to look for decisions. The OT saints were not in Hades, by the way . . . Luke 16 contrasts Hades and its torment with where they were taken by angels and experienced comfort and fellowship with Abraham. Their hope was that expressed by Psalm 73: "Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory. Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee. My flesh and my heart faileth: but God is the strength of my heart, and my portion for ever".



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Justaned
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Re: No One Saved Before Jesus' Death, Burial, & Resurrection

Post by Justaned » Fri May 31, 2013 11:10 am

fatherfisher wrote:The fact that Jesus had to descend into Hades and preach there suggests that the saints that heard the Good News had to make a decision. Does it not?

Absolutely not. He did not "preach" as in evangelize; totally different word in Greek. He went there to announce his victory, not to look for decisions. The OT saints were not in Hades, by the way . . . Luke 16 contrasts Hades and its torment with where they were taken by angels and experienced comfort and fellowship with Abraham. Their hope was that expressed by Psalm 73: "Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory. Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee. My flesh and my heart faileth: but God is the strength of my heart, and my portion for ever".
Luke 16 details exactly the concept of the Hades the holding place for the dead in Judaism. Where they got the teaching is unknown but it is a known fact the Jews believed in Hades or Hell as the holding place of the dead. They further believed one side was for the unrighteous and was a hot dry place and that the other other side was Paradise or Abraham's Bosom reserved for the righteous dead.

The fact the Jesus detailed it out in Luke 16 as He did confirming the Jewish teaching on Hades makes scholars believe it is factual. No one can conceive of Jesus perpetuating a false teaching by repeating it even if only in a parable as some suggest.

Eph 4:8 says Jesus lead captive captivity. To be in captivity you have to be held by something. Death is what was holding the Old Testament saints they needed to set free, saved from death. There salvation was realized in Christ Jesus and in HIm alone. His victory over death and hell set them free.



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Justaned
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Re: No One Saved Before Jesus' Death, Burial, & Resurrection

Post by Justaned » Fri May 31, 2013 11:31 am

fatherfisher wrote:[Their hope was that expressed by Psalm 73: "Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory. Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee. My flesh and my heart faileth: but God is the strength of my heart, and my portion for ever".
If we are going to use Psalm 73 to teach theology let us look at more than a verse or two.
Psalm 73:20-28 (NKJV)
20 As a dream when one awakes, So, Lord, when You awake, You shall despise their image.
21 Thus my heart was grieved, And I was vexed in my mind.
22 I was so foolish and ignorant; I was like a beast before You.
23 Nevertheless I am continually with You; You hold me by my right hand.
24 You will guide me with Your counsel, And afterward receive me to glory.
25 Whom have I in heaven but You? And there is none upon earth that I desire besides You.
26 My flesh and my heart fail; But God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever.
27 For indeed, those who are far from You shall perish; You have destroyed all those who desert You for harlotry.
28 But it is good for me to draw near to God; I have put my trust in the Lord GOD, That I may declare all Your works.
I guess from verse 20 we can assume God sleeps.
and that Verse 23 is teaching we are with God instead of God with us?

Just two examples of faulty theology obtained by ripping verses from context.

What is this psalm saying. It is a psalm of worship of the trust in God that God will provide a salvation from the Law that requires death for sin. A way that must yet be opened. Salvation is only provided in Christ Jesus was not realized until Jesus defeated death. Before Jesus you could be found righteous by your faith in God but you still had to have Jesus to defeat death to give you the ultimate salvation. Righeousness made you a candidate but Salvation was made available to the whole world by Grace by it still had to be accepted by belief in Jesus not just a belief in a comming Messiah. Therefore Jesus did appear in Hell and he did lead those held captive into salvation from that what held them death.



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Re: No One Saved Before Jesus' Death, Burial, & Resurrection

Post by titus213 » Fri May 31, 2013 12:03 pm

Actually, you are the one who has just ripped a couple of verses from Psalm 73 to try to make some kind of point. Can we not teach theology from verses which are clear, and taken in context, as I did? Are you suggesting what the OT says cannot be used as doctrine, merely because it is the OT saying it? Merely to fuss and fume and then engage in bogus exegesis yourself only demonstrate the weakness of your own position.

You speak of Judaism's beliefs about life after death. Judaism was (and is) the religion of Israel, an invention of man, a perversion of the faith God revealed throughout the Old Testament, and believed by the faithful remnant of Jews. Judaism accepted pagan and mythological concepts; God never did.

So if you want to know what Jewish believers taught and believed, you don't turn to Judaism. You turn to the B-I-B-L-E. Just as Jesus and the apostles did. And just as Jesus and the apostles show us, there is a vast difference between what you find there and Judaism.

I notice (as usual) you evade the points being made against your arguments.

You claimed that Jesus went to Hades to give the OT saints a chance to make a decision. I showed you that (a) Jesus did not go to Hades, (b) he did not go where he went to give anyone a chance to make a decision, and (c) the OT saints were not there to begin with. Luke 16 is clear that they were not in Hades with the rich man, but with Abraham. I did not say Luke 16 is a parable; I did not say Jesus deceived anyone by what he said. I simply pointed out the obvious: Hades was one place, a place of torment. Where Lazarus went was someplace else, a place where the angels took him, a place of comfort. Jesus said so.

You insist it was actually a place of imprisonment and captivity.
Thanks, but I'll go with Jesus on this.



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