Dake Bible Discussion BoardSaved!, Sinned! What now

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dolph
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Re: Saved!, Sinned! What now

Post by dolph » Sat May 18, 2013 2:04 pm

bibleman wrote:
Justaned wrote:
dolph wrote:
Justaned wrote:Again everyone is saying I'm wrong that saved people can sin lose their salvation, confess their sin and repent and be saved again.

Okay then explain
Hebrews 6:4-6 (NKJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
emphasis mine

And it isn't said only once but repeated again in
Hebrews 10:26-27 (NKJV)
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
emphasis mine

Everyone keeps giving me the false teaching of Backslidding where preachers wants us to believe we ride a roller coaster of salvation damnation. We are saved when we live like they say we should live and are damned to eteranl damnation when we don't.

Scripture clearly states that salvation can be lost. But it also is just as clear saying once salvation is lost there is nothing left to save us again.
Ed, I think these verses above are so strong against a person getting a second chance that they trump Dake's scriptures. But there really does seem to be a contradiction in scripture. I agree with Ironman that Peter and Judas were saved before they sinned. God always had a remnant of believers simply by believing in God like Abraham or looking forward to the coming Messiah or the cross.
Peter and Judas could not have been saved as salvation requires remission of sin. They were in sin, their sins had not been paid. Scripture says the wages of sin or the price of sin is death. A sacrifice had to be made. An animal sacrifice only paid for the year. It required the blood of an eternal sacrifice, yes was the only eternal being that was perfect (without blemish) that offered His blood on the altar of God. Without that blood the penalty for sin still existed and Peter and Judas still owed it.

The fact they had the Holy Spirit on them does not prove anything Elijah and Elisha raised the dead, stopped the rain, called down fire but they never claimed to be saved. Only righteous in the eyes of God awaiting that which would save them the Messiah.
Hi Ed,

Luke 7:44-48 (KJV) 44 And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.
45 Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.
46 My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.
47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.


So you are saying that this woman's sins were NOT forgiven?
YES IRONMAN, In the eyes of God and through man's eye of faith these O.T. believers were saved. "Faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen."

Ed, you're being too technical and getting into semantics. These O.T. saints were as much saved as you and I.



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Justaned
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Re: Saved!, Sinned! What now

Post by Justaned » Sat May 18, 2013 2:05 pm

bibleman wrote:
Justaned wrote:
dolph wrote:
Justaned wrote:Again everyone is saying I'm wrong that saved people can sin lose their salvation, confess their sin and repent and be saved again.

Okay then explain
Hebrews 6:4-6 (NKJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
emphasis mine

And it isn't said only once but repeated again in
Hebrews 10:26-27 (NKJV)
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
emphasis mine

Everyone keeps giving me the false teaching of Backslidding where preachers wants us to believe we ride a roller coaster of salvation damnation. We are saved when we live like they say we should live and are damned to eteranl damnation when we don't.

Scripture clearly states that salvation can be lost. But it also is just as clear saying once salvation is lost there is nothing left to save us again.
Ed, I think these verses above are so strong against a person getting a second chance that they trump Dake's scriptures. But there really does seem to be a contradiction in scripture. I agree with Ironman that Peter and Judas were saved before they sinned. God always had a remnant of believers simply by believing in God like Abraham or looking forward to the coming Messiah or the cross.
Peter and Judas could not have been saved as salvation requires remission of sin. They were in sin, their sins had not been paid. Scripture says the wages of sin or the price of sin is death. A sacrifice had to be made. An animal sacrifice only paid for the year. It required the blood of an eternal sacrifice, yes was the only eternal being that was perfect (without blemish) that offered His blood on the altar of God. Without that blood the penalty for sin still existed and Peter and Judas still owed it.

The fact they had the Holy Spirit on them does not prove anything Elijah and Elisha raised the dead, stopped the rain, called down fire but they never claimed to be saved. Only righteous in the eyes of God awaiting that which would save them the Messiah.
Hi Ed,

Luke 7:44-48 (KJV) 44 And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.
45 Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.
46 My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.
47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.


So you are saying that this woman's sins were NOT forgiven?
Nope but they hadn't yet been paid for. Her admittance into heaven which requires sinless perfection has not yet been paid. Her sins still required the death of Jesus to seal the covenant that would give her admittance into heaven.

Jesus could talk in the declarative about her salvation because Jesus knew He was going to die as payment for her sins that would give her admittance into heaven.
Last edited by Justaned on Sat May 18, 2013 2:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.



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Justaned
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Re: Saved!, Sinned! What now

Post by Justaned » Sat May 18, 2013 2:06 pm

dolph wrote:
bibleman wrote:
Justaned wrote:
dolph wrote:
Justaned wrote:Again everyone is saying I'm wrong that saved people can sin lose their salvation, confess their sin and repent and be saved again.

Okay then explain
Hebrews 6:4-6 (NKJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
emphasis mine

And it isn't said only once but repeated again in
Hebrews 10:26-27 (NKJV)
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
emphasis mine

Everyone keeps giving me the false teaching of Backslidding where preachers wants us to believe we ride a roller coaster of salvation damnation. We are saved when we live like they say we should live and are damned to eteranl damnation when we don't.

Scripture clearly states that salvation can be lost. But it also is just as clear saying once salvation is lost there is nothing left to save us again.
Ed, I think these verses above are so strong against a person getting a second chance that they trump Dake's scriptures. But there really does seem to be a contradiction in scripture. I agree with Ironman that Peter and Judas were saved before they sinned. God always had a remnant of believers simply by believing in God like Abraham or looking forward to the coming Messiah or the cross.
Peter and Judas could not have been saved as salvation requires remission of sin. They were in sin, their sins had not been paid. Scripture says the wages of sin or the price of sin is death. A sacrifice had to be made. An animal sacrifice only paid for the year. It required the blood of an eternal sacrifice, yes was the only eternal being that was perfect (without blemish) that offered His blood on the altar of God. Without that blood the penalty for sin still existed and Peter and Judas still owed it.

The fact they had the Holy Spirit on them does not prove anything Elijah and Elisha raised the dead, stopped the rain, called down fire but they never claimed to be saved. Only righteous in the eyes of God awaiting that which would save them the Messiah.
Hi Ed,

Luke 7:44-48 (KJV) 44 And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.
45 Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.
46 My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.
47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.


So you are saying that this woman's sins were NOT forgiven?
YES IRONMAN, In the eyes of God and through man's eye of faith these O.T. believers were saved. "Faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen."

Ed, you're being too technical and getting into semantics. These O.T. saints were as much saved as you and I.
Then why did Jesus have to die?



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branham1965
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Re: Saved!, Sinned! What now

Post by branham1965 » Sat May 18, 2013 5:42 pm

dolph

if i sneak into a theatre to see a movie would that be the same as coming in the back door in assault fatigues and being a cold blooded demonic murderer????

and anyone anywhere who told you that about James not being up to Paul's is rubbish!!!that is hyper-dispensational error.
Peter in Acts 2 gave a mighty sermon which discussed THE DEATH BURIAL AND RESURRECTION OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST!!!! people were saved in verses 2:36 ff.
after the miracle at the Beautiful Gate Peter preached what in Acts 3 and 4???the death and Resurrection of Jesus!!!!
EVERY Gospel sermon in Acts has the same message.


dolph wrote:So, is everyone in agreement except Ed that if a Christian "slips" and sins, when a driver cuts them off for example, that they have lost their salvation until they confess their sin and get born-again, again???

Personally, I don't think there is any difference between a tiny sin and murder, for example, or is there??

A third position is that James was one of the Jerusalem apostles and wasn't really up to par with the Pauline doctrines of simply faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ to be saved when he penned James 1:9. That we aren't under the Law. But Dake believes we are under the law of the N.T., all 1050 commandments.

Of course, all this could be academic. Practically speaking, my motto is, he who is led by the Spirit of God, he is a son of God and when the Holy Spirit convicts me of a sin I have committed, I confess it to my High Priest, Jesus.



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Ironman
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Re: Saved!, Sinned! What now

Post by Ironman » Sat May 18, 2013 6:36 pm

Justaned wrote:
Ironman wrote:Your good at it, I'll give you that. I never hijaked the thread??

You asked in the thread you accuse me of hijaking;
I don't recall accusing you of anything. I said I started this thread to prevent the other thread from being hijacked. I didn't mention a name.

If that felt accusational to you I'm sorry you felt that way but that is your problem not mine.
Hijak, about to hijak, did he or didn't he hijak, what difference does it make, Sorry but didnt you write this?
"This thread is being opened to prevent another thread from being hijacked.

Ironman has said that many in the New Testament who were saved sinned and lost their salvation and to get it back had to confess their sin and repent.

I said there are no such examples.

Ironman offered both Peter and Judas."[
. There's the name too!

Did you know Moses was a saved man? He had his name written in the book of life.

"And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written." (Exodus 32:31-32).

You asked, "Why did Jesus have to die?"

To tear the veil from to to bottom and open up salvation to evey man woman and child who has ever lived and who will live untill all is again restored to the way God had originally planed.

"And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst." (Luke 23:45). Every one can no go to the Father in Jesus Name. and ask forgiveness.

You believe no one in the O.T. was a saved person??

David, who sinned, who was an adulterer, a murderer, then a repentant sinner was a man, according to God, whom God called, "a man after my own heart!"

"And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years. And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave their testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:" (Acts 13:21-23).

So, do you really think Jesus came from the line of a man who was lost?


Galatians 4: 16, Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

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Justaned
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Re: Saved!, Sinned! What now

Post by Justaned » Sat May 18, 2013 9:19 pm

Ironman wrote:
Justaned wrote:
Ironman wrote:Your good at it, I'll give you that. I never hijaked the thread??

You asked in the thread you accuse me of hijaking;
I don't recall accusing you of anything. I said I started this thread to prevent the other thread from being hijacked. I didn't mention a name.

If that felt accusational to you I'm sorry you felt that way but that is your problem not mine.
Hijak, about to hijak, did he or didn't he hijak, what difference does it make, Sorry but didnt you write this?
"This thread is being opened to prevent another thread from being hijacked.

Ironman has said that many in the New Testament who were saved sinned and lost their salvation and to get it back had to confess their sin and repent.

I said there are no such examples.

Ironman offered both Peter and Judas."[
. There's the name too!

Did you know Moses was a saved man? He had his name written in the book of life.

"And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written." (Exodus 32:31-32).

You asked, "Why did Jesus have to die?"

To tear the veil from to to bottom and open up salvation to evey man woman and child who has ever lived and who will live untill all is again restored to the way God had originally planed.

"And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst." (Luke 23:45). Every one can no go to the Father in Jesus Name. and ask forgiveness.

You believe no one in the O.T. was a saved person??

David, who sinned, who was an adulterer, a murderer, then a repentant sinner was a man, according to God, whom God called, "a man after my own heart!"

"And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years. And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave their testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:" (Acts 13:21-23).

So, do you really think Jesus came from the line of a man who was lost?
Ironman
Okay I give up your right and I'm wrong.
Now tell me what Hebrews 6:4-7 says.

I say it says it is impossible for a person that was once saved and lost their salvation to ever be saved again. What you say it means?

I further go back to my statement that started this discussion. I said no scripture ever tells a person that was saved in the New Testament and had lost his salvation to repent to be saved again. If it does then we have a contradiction in scripture.



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Re: Saved!, Sinned! What now

Post by scottae316 » Sat May 18, 2013 11:07 pm

Just to understand if one sins at all, they must be born again, again? So then they would have to be Baptized again also, correct?



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Re: Saved!, Sinned! What now

Post by macca » Sat May 18, 2013 11:49 pm

Ananias and Sapphira sure did not get a second chance after getting caught out lieing to God.... :shocked!:

macca



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Re: Saved!, Sinned! What now

Post by Ironman » Sun May 19, 2013 2:44 am

Justaned wrote:
Ironman wrote:
Justaned wrote:
Ironman wrote:Your good at it, I'll give you that. I never hijaked the thread??

You asked in the thread you accuse me of hijaking;
I don't recall accusing you of anything. I said I started this thread to prevent the other thread from being hijacked. I didn't mention a name.

If that felt accusational to you I'm sorry you felt that way but that is your problem not mine.
Hijak, about to hijak, did he or didn't he hijak, what difference does it make, Sorry but didnt you write this?
"This thread is being opened to prevent another thread from being hijacked.

Ironman has said that many in the New Testament who were saved sinned and lost their salvation and to get it back had to confess their sin and repent.

I said there are no such examples.

Ironman offered both Peter and Judas."[
. There's the name too!

Did you know Moses was a saved man? He had his name written in the book of life.

"And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written." (Exodus 32:31-32).

You asked, "Why did Jesus have to die?"

To tear the veil from to to bottom and open up salvation to evey man woman and child who has ever lived and who will live untill all is again restored to the way God had originally planed.

"And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst." (Luke 23:45). Every one can no go to the Father in Jesus Name. and ask forgiveness.

You believe no one in the O.T. was a saved person??

David, who sinned, who was an adulterer, a murderer, then a repentant sinner was a man, according to God, whom God called, "a man after my own heart!"

"And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years. And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave their testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:" (Acts 13:21-23).

So, do you really think Jesus came from the line of a man who was lost?
Ironman
Okay I give up your right and I'm wrong.
Now tell me what Hebrews 6:4-7 says.

I say it says it is impossible for a person that was once saved and lost their salvation to ever be saved again. What you say it means?

I further go back to my statement that started this discussion. I said no scripture ever tells a person that was saved in the New Testament and had lost his salvation to repent to be saved again. If it does then we have a contradiction in scripture.
I posted this in the other thread mate.

On Hebrews 4:6, (If they should fall away), How could they fall away from experiences of v 4-5 if they never did have them? The language is past tense and factual so it cannot be denied that the ones referred to did at one time have experiences. Greek, parapipto, to fall aside; apostatize; fall away. It means to throw overboard all faith in the experiences of the gospel and to deny them. men are here warned that such is possible.

"To renew them again to repentence," is impossible. The reason given given is that they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to open shame. This is the final act of apostacy. They publicly judge Him an imposter and worthy of death. That is, they do not believe in Him or His atonement any longer. Since such faith is the only thing that could renew them again to repentence, it then becomes impossible. How could they be renewed again to repentence if they had not esperienced repentence before? The word "again" means "once more; another time; anew;" and this required repentence one before.


Galatians 4: 16, Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

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Re: Saved!, Sinned! What now

Post by branham1965 » Sun May 19, 2013 7:09 am

The Corinthian fornicator was shacking up with his step mother .
Paul exercised his Apostolic authority and delivered the erring man to Satan.1 Cor 5.
the Bible says he was in the Body of Christ at Corinth 1 Cor 5 and that he repented and returned 2 Cor 2.
this proves that you are right Haz.the man went astray and repented and accepted BACK INTO THE CHURCH AT CORINTH!!!!
IF HE WAS UNSAVED WHY WOULD HE BE WELCOMED BACK INTO THE CHURCH????
the Holy Spirit said Simon himself believed and was baptized.he was even hanging out with Phillip!!!!but fpolks say he was not saved.Peter rebuked him and gave him the plan of pardon for erring Christians is to repent and pray v22.
Gal 6 and James 5 teach restoring the fallen.
AS does are Lord's wonderful parable of the Good Samaritan.....how many of us walk on the other side of the road with our noses up in the air???Luke 10
Justaned wrote:
Ironman wrote:
Justaned wrote:
Ironman wrote:Your good at it, I'll give you that. I never hijaked the thread??

You asked in the thread you accuse me of hijaking;
I don't recall accusing you of anything. I said I started this thread to prevent the other thread from being hijacked. I didn't mention a name.

If that felt accusational to you I'm sorry you felt that way but that is your problem not mine.
Hijak, about to hijak, did he or didn't he hijak, what difference does it make, Sorry but didnt you write this?
"This thread is being opened to prevent another thread from being hijacked.

Ironman has said that many in the New Testament who were saved sinned and lost their salvation and to get it back had to confess their sin and repent.

I said there are no such examples.

Ironman offered both Peter and Judas."[
. There's the name too!

Did you know Moses was a saved man? He had his name written in the book of life.

"And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written." (Exodus 32:31-32).

You asked, "Why did Jesus have to die?"

To tear the veil from to to bottom and open up salvation to evey man woman and child who has ever lived and who will live untill all is again restored to the way God had originally planed.

"And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst." (Luke 23:45). Every one can no go to the Father in Jesus Name. and ask forgiveness.

You believe no one in the O.T. was a saved person??

David, who sinned, who was an adulterer, a murderer, then a repentant sinner was a man, according to God, whom God called, "a man after my own heart!"

"And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years. And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave their testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:" (Acts 13:21-23).

So, do you really think Jesus came from the line of a man who was lost?
Ironman
Okay I give up your right and I'm wrong.
Now tell me what Hebrews 6:4-7 says.

I say it says it is impossible for a person that was once saved and lost their salvation to ever be saved again. What you say it means?

I further go back to my statement that started this discussion. I said no scripture ever tells a person that was saved in the New Testament and had lost his salvation to repent to be saved again. If it does then we have a contradiction in scripture.



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