Dake Bible Discussion BoardSaved!, Sinned! What now

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Ironman
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Re: Saved!, Sinned! What now

Post by Ironman » Fri May 17, 2013 7:34 pm

Your good at it, I'll give you that. I never hijaked the thread??

You asked in the thread you accuse me of hijaking;
"Who in the New Testament that was a Christian did something worst than murder? In fact who is mentioned in the New Testament that had to seek forgiveness to regain their salvation after they were initially saved?

As far as I know there is not one recorded instance in the New Testament and after the Work on the cross of a Christian sinning and being told he has lost his salvation and to regain it he must confess it, repent of it. If you know of a scripture I sure would like to see it."
.

I tried my best to show you by providing not just one but quite a few. Here's your problem.

" . . . . . . . . Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God." (Matthew 22:29).

Taken from the book, Dakes Plan for Man.

Judas was once a saved man? He had the Holy Spirit and power like the other apostles and was a sucessfull preacher and healer like them (Matt. 10:1-20; Mark. 6:6-13). He had his name written in the book of life in Heaven as proved by Acts 1:20.

"For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take." (Acts 1:20). He fell from the apostleship by transgress: "That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.(Acts 1:25).

In the Scriptures, which you demand to see but have been blinded by the devil and untill now have not seen, we have statements that Judas was a man who was a "fimiliar friend" of Jesus Christ, who ate of His bread, which is an idiom of close friendship; "Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me." (Ps. 41:9). he was not an enemy of Christ, but an equal in grace, a guide, and a sweet acquaintance; " For it was not an enemy that reproached me; then I could have borne it: neither was it he that hated me that did magnify himself against me; then I would have hid myself from him: But it was thou, a man mine equal, my guide, and mine acquaintance." (Ps 55:12-13).

He was to have his habitation desolate and be blotted out of the book of the living "For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take." (Acts 1:20), and he was to have "another take his place" in the Christian ministry and in the kingship over oneof the tribes of Israel, "Let his days be few; and let another take his office." (Ps. 109:8).

These passages were fulfilled in Judas according to Matt. 26:24; John 13:8; Acts 1:16-25).
"The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born." (Matt.26:24), "I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me." (John 13:18),

And,

"Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out. And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood. For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take. Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection. And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place." (Acts 1:16-25).

In Mark 6:7-13 we read that the twelve, Judas Included, went "forth two by two . . . and preached that men should repent. And they Judas Included, cast out many devils, and anointed with oil many that were sick and healed them."
This proves that Judas was a divinely efficient man, a sucessfull preacher and endued with power to heal. If he was not a saved man and if he could have all these experiences and do thses miricles as a sinner, then it would seem that Christians who claim to be saved regardless of what they do should be able to do as much as Judas did. Also it would be going too far to accuse Jesus Christ of choosing an unsaved man to preach repentance and holiness, to heal the sick, to cast out devils, and to represent the Kingdom of God among men.

The Holy Spirit through Luke records that Judas "By Transgression Fell" (Acts 1:15-25). If men would be as anxious to believe the Holy Spirit as they are to believe men, and if they would be as anxious to believe all Scriptures as they claim to believe somethey would show some consistency and honesty regarding the whole Word of God. Judas not only had a moral fall but sin caused it. He was not allways a "devil" and a "thief." He became both after he had been saved for some time. His weakness was the love of money and this caused his fall, "This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein." (John 12:6), "And they were glad, and covenanted to give him money." (Luke 22:5). He had seen Christ escape many timesand he no doubt thought the Lord would escape again and he would be the richer. it was not untill the end of Christs ministry that Judas began to pilfer and to grow cold in his love of Christ. At the last supper he became united with the devil. He broke with Christ and saught opportunity to betray Him.

Judas was sorry afterwards for his betrayal "Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that. Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that." (Matt. 27:3-5). He could have been forgiven as much as any of the others who cursed, denied Christ, and fled like cowards in the test. But being of a disposition to do so, he brooded over his fall and yielded to temptation to commit suicide. Judas is a specific exampleof a New testament man who was once saved and in God's favour and grace but who by transgression fell, and because of his unrepented sin went to hell. Jesus Himself acknowledged to the Father that of those whom the Father had given Him, Judas was the only one whom He had "LOST."

JESUS PRAYED THIS TO THE FATHER BEFORE HE WAS ARRESTED IN THE GARDEN AND BEFORE HE DIED ON THE CROSS.


"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." (John 17:12).

Christ could not have lost Judas if He never had him to lose. Jesus also testified that to everyone including Judas, that the Father had given Him, He had given ETERNAL LIFE,

"As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him." (John 17:2). Judas had this eternal life as much as the others but he became "lost" later and "by transgression fell" (Acts 1:25).

There are other such examples of saved people loosing their salvation, their eternal life through unrepented sin.


Galatians 4: 16, Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

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Re: Saved!, Sinned! What now

Post by macca » Fri May 17, 2013 8:56 pm

Hello Ed.
What was Jesus talking about in Luke. 19:1-10; ?
Was that a different type of salvation?

Macca



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Re: Saved!, Sinned! What now

Post by dolph » Fri May 17, 2013 11:31 pm

So, is everyone in agreement except Ed that if a Christian "slips" and sins, when a driver cuts them off for example, that they have lost their salvation until they confess their sin and get born-again, again???

Personally, I don't think there is any difference between a tiny sin and murder, for example, or is there??

A third position is that James was one of the Jerusalem apostles and wasn't really up to par with the Pauline doctrines of simply faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ to be saved when he penned James 1:9. That we aren't under the Law. But Dake believes we are under the law of the N.T., all 1050 commandments.

Of course, all this could be academic. Practically speaking, my motto is, he who is led by the Spirit of God, he is a son of God and when the Holy Spirit convicts me of a sin I have committed, I confess it to my High Priest, Jesus.



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Justaned
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Re: Saved!, Sinned! What now

Post by Justaned » Sat May 18, 2013 10:47 am

macca wrote:Hello Ed.
What was Jesus talking about in Luke. 19:1-10; ?
Was that a different type of salvation?

Macca
If this was salvation then why did Jesus have to go to the cross if this man was saved before?
Answer that question.



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Justaned
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Re: Saved!, Sinned! What now

Post by Justaned » Sat May 18, 2013 10:55 am

Again everyone is saying I'm wrong that saved people can sin lose their salvation, confess their sin and repent and be saved again.

Okay then explain
Hebrews 6:4-6 (NKJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
emphasis mine

And it isn't said only once but repeated again in
Hebrews 10:26-27 (NKJV)
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
emphasis mine

Everyone keeps giving me the false teaching of Backslidding where preachers wants us to believe we ride a roller coaster of salvation damnation. We are saved when we live like they say we should live and are damned to eteranl damnation when we don't.

Scripture clearly states that salvation can be lost. But it also is just as clear saying once salvation is lost there is nothing left to save us again.



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Justaned
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Re: Saved!, Sinned! What now

Post by Justaned » Sat May 18, 2013 10:57 am

Ironman wrote:Your good at it, I'll give you that. I never hijaked the thread??

You asked in the thread you accuse me of hijaking;
I don't recall accusing you of anything. I said I started this thread to prevent the other thread from being hijacked. I didn't mention a name.

If that felt accusational to you I'm sorry you felt that way but that is your problem not mine.



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Justaned
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Re: Saved!, Sinned! What now

Post by Justaned » Sat May 18, 2013 11:19 am

Ironman said in another thread
Wheather Jesus had died or not, makes no difference. Scripture CLEARLY STATES, Judas was a saved man.

"Jesus Himself acknowledged to the Father that of those whom the Father had given Him, Judas was the only one whom He had "LOST."

"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." (John 17:12). All tis was said by Jesus before He went into the garden and was betrayed and was arrested.

Judas had his name removed from the book of life as soon as he comitted suicide and hung himself. There was no repentence after he did that.

Jesus could not have lost Judas if Judas was not saved. What dont you get about that???????
I do get that but nowhere does it even remotely suggest that Judas repented

That has been my argument. Not whether a truly save person can lose their salvation ( I beleive they can) What I dispute is that they can ever get saved again. Scripture clearly says they can not.


Also Judas and Peter for that matter are exceptions they were not saved under the New Covenant at the point in time they sinned.



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Re: Saved!, Sinned! What now

Post by dolph » Sat May 18, 2013 12:36 pm

Justaned wrote:Again everyone is saying I'm wrong that saved people can sin lose their salvation, confess their sin and repent and be saved again.

Okay then explain
Hebrews 6:4-6 (NKJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
emphasis mine

And it isn't said only once but repeated again in
Hebrews 10:26-27 (NKJV)
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
emphasis mine

Everyone keeps giving me the false teaching of Backslidding where preachers wants us to believe we ride a roller coaster of salvation damnation. We are saved when we live like they say we should live and are damned to eteranl damnation when we don't.

Scripture clearly states that salvation can be lost. But it also is just as clear saying once salvation is lost there is nothing left to save us again.
Ed, I think these verses above are so strong against a person getting a second chance that they trump Dake's scriptures. But there really does seem to be a contradiction in scripture. I agree with Ironman that Peter and Judas were saved before they sinned. God always had a remnant of believers simply by believing in God like Abraham or looking forward to the coming Messiah or the cross.



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Justaned
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Re: Saved!, Sinned! What now

Post by Justaned » Sat May 18, 2013 1:11 pm

dolph wrote:
Justaned wrote:Again everyone is saying I'm wrong that saved people can sin lose their salvation, confess their sin and repent and be saved again.

Okay then explain
Hebrews 6:4-6 (NKJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
emphasis mine

And it isn't said only once but repeated again in
Hebrews 10:26-27 (NKJV)
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
emphasis mine

Everyone keeps giving me the false teaching of Backslidding where preachers wants us to believe we ride a roller coaster of salvation damnation. We are saved when we live like they say we should live and are damned to eteranl damnation when we don't.

Scripture clearly states that salvation can be lost. But it also is just as clear saying once salvation is lost there is nothing left to save us again.
Ed, I think these verses above are so strong against a person getting a second chance that they trump Dake's scriptures. But there really does seem to be a contradiction in scripture. I agree with Ironman that Peter and Judas were saved before they sinned. God always had a remnant of believers simply by believing in God like Abraham or looking forward to the coming Messiah or the cross.
Peter and Judas could not have been saved as salvation requires remission of sin. They were in sin, their sins had not been paid. Scripture says the wages of sin or the price of sin is death. A sacrifice had to be made. An animal sacrifice only paid for the year. It required the blood of an eternal sacrifice, yes was the only eternal being that was perfect (without blemish) that offered His blood on the altar of God. Without that blood the penalty for sin still existed and Peter and Judas still owed it.

The fact they had the Holy Spirit on them does not prove anything Elijah and Elisha raised the dead, stopped the rain, called down fire but they never claimed to be saved. Only righteous in the eyes of God awaiting that which would save them the Messiah.



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Re: Saved!, Sinned! What now

Post by bibleman » Sat May 18, 2013 1:27 pm

Justaned wrote:
dolph wrote:
Justaned wrote:Again everyone is saying I'm wrong that saved people can sin lose their salvation, confess their sin and repent and be saved again.

Okay then explain
Hebrews 6:4-6 (NKJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
emphasis mine

And it isn't said only once but repeated again in
Hebrews 10:26-27 (NKJV)
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
emphasis mine

Everyone keeps giving me the false teaching of Backslidding where preachers wants us to believe we ride a roller coaster of salvation damnation. We are saved when we live like they say we should live and are damned to eteranl damnation when we don't.

Scripture clearly states that salvation can be lost. But it also is just as clear saying once salvation is lost there is nothing left to save us again.
Ed, I think these verses above are so strong against a person getting a second chance that they trump Dake's scriptures. But there really does seem to be a contradiction in scripture. I agree with Ironman that Peter and Judas were saved before they sinned. God always had a remnant of believers simply by believing in God like Abraham or looking forward to the coming Messiah or the cross.
Peter and Judas could not have been saved as salvation requires remission of sin. They were in sin, their sins had not been paid. Scripture says the wages of sin or the price of sin is death. A sacrifice had to be made. An animal sacrifice only paid for the year. It required the blood of an eternal sacrifice, yes was the only eternal being that was perfect (without blemish) that offered His blood on the altar of God. Without that blood the penalty for sin still existed and Peter and Judas still owed it.

The fact they had the Holy Spirit on them does not prove anything Elijah and Elisha raised the dead, stopped the rain, called down fire but they never claimed to be saved. Only righteous in the eyes of God awaiting that which would save them the Messiah.
Hi Ed,

Luke 7:44-48 (KJV) 44 And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.
45 Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.
46 My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.
47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.


So you are saying that this woman's sins were NOT forgiven?


God bless
Leon Bible

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