Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Purgatory

[Reuben]

One of the saddest facts of church history is that from the the age just after the apostles and onward the church fell more and more into serious error regarding how a person is saved, with grace and faith giving way to legalism and the doing of good works as the way to attain the favor of God. The carrot-and-stick approach you mention runs virtually all through the writings of the church fathers. This is one reason why Romanism cannot break out of a works-salvation approach, with her insistence on holding so-called Tradition on an even par with Scripture.

It sure seems as though Paul's efforts to warn the Galatians didn't carry through to the early church and its leaders. And the same tendency is all around us in Protestant circles, as well. The natural man naturally leans toward a rewards and punishment way of thinking; and since we naturally believe we can pull ourselves up by our own bootstraps and do for ourselves whatever it is that God requires for salvation, it's not surprising to find self-salvation as a main feature even in those churches which would theoretically deny that people can save themselves.

The true church of Jesus Christ has to be on guard, in every generation, against this natural tendency to think that man can save himself with, at most, a little help from God. Jesus came to seek and save the lost.

Last night I was perusing through some of the catechisms and I was amazed at the content which makes no bones about elevating their traditions to the same par as the bible. They actually do not believe that the bible is the end-it-all but needs the catechism as completion. Interesting stuff and yet a harlot religion if I have ever seen one.

[Justaned]

Let me add one additional point and I'm sure there will be those that immediately point to the child abuse issue however......

Protestants have so lowered their view of the Pastor that they have allowed their expectations and requirements to fall also. Nearly anyone that claims a calling can become a pastor and as such can do and say most anything the want and many will rush to their defense should anyone call them on it.

In many cases today's churches have leadership that equals the churches view of the office and their expectations of the person that fills that office. And they wonder why people aren't coming to their church.

[Justaned]

Last night I was perusing through some of the catechisms and I was amazed at the content which makes no bones about elevating their traditions to the same par as the bible. They actually do not believe that the bible is the end-it-all but needs the catechism as completion. Interesting stuff and yet a harlot religion if I have ever seen one.

Good Point!
Acts 2:38 (NKJV)
38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:41 (NKJV)
41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.

Acts 8:12 (NKJV)
12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.

Acts 10:47-48 (NKJV)
47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

Acts 16:33 (NKJV)
33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized.

Acts 18:8 (NKJV)
8 Then Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his household. And many of the Corinthians, hearing, believed and were baptized.

Acts 19:5 (NKJV)
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Acts 22:16-17 (NKJV)
16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'

Catholic church says you must be baptized. Protestants argue over the need.
Perhaps this is why Jesus told the disciples to go make disciples, to teach. Perhaps in certain places the Written Word does need the clarification of the teachings of the early disciples. Or we end up with what we have today 3000+ denominations saying everyone is wrong but us.

Look at this way if the Catholics are wrong there will a lot of people in heaven that were baptized but didn't need to be. However if the Protestants are wrong there may be many that aren't heaven. In this case I don't have problem with their cathechism taking precedence over scripture.

[bibleman]

Last night I was perusing through some of the catechisms and I was amazed at the content which makes no bones about elevating their traditions to the same par as the bible. They actually do not believe that the bible is the end-it-all but needs the catechism as completion. Interesting stuff and yet a harlot religion if I have ever seen one.

Good Point!
Acts 2:38 (NKJV)
38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:41 (NKJV)
41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.

Acts 8:12 (NKJV)
12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.

Acts 10:47-48 (NKJV)
47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

Acts 16:33 (NKJV)
33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized.

Acts 18:8 (NKJV)
8 Then Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his household. And many of the Corinthians, hearing, believed and were baptized.

Acts 19:5 (NKJV)
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Acts 22:16-17 (NKJV)
16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'

Catholic church says you must be baptized. Protestants argue over the need.
Perhaps this is why Jesus told the disciples to go make disciples, to teach. Perhaps in certain places the Written Word does need the clarification of the teachings of the early disciples. Or we end up with what we have today 3000+ denominations saying everyone is wrong but us.

Look at this way if the Catholics are wrong there will a lot of people in heaven that were baptized but didn't need to be. However if the Protestants are wrong there may be many that aren't heaven. In this case I don't have problem with their cathechism taking precedence over scripture.

Hi Ed,

Above you said: "Look at this way if the Catholics are wrong there will a lot of people in heaven that were baptized but didn't need to be."

That is assuming that catholics will go to Heaven in the first place.

Which in view of their practice of praying to Mary and other dead people as well as worshiping the pope... well seems that as long as they are in the catholic church they don't have to be concerned about getting baptized!

[Justaned]

Last night I was perusing through some of the catechisms and I was amazed at the content which makes no bones about elevating their traditions to the same par as the bible. They actually do not believe that the bible is the end-it-all but needs the catechism as completion. Interesting stuff and yet a harlot religion if I have ever seen one.

Good Point!
Acts 2:38 (NKJV)
38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:41 (NKJV)
41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.

Acts 8:12 (NKJV)
12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.

Acts 10:47-48 (NKJV)
47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

Acts 16:33 (NKJV)
33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized.

Acts 18:8 (NKJV)
8 Then Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his household. And many of the Corinthians, hearing, believed and were baptized.

Acts 19:5 (NKJV)
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Acts 22:16-17 (NKJV)
16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'

Catholic church says you must be baptized. Protestants argue over the need.
Perhaps this is why Jesus told the disciples to go make disciples, to teach. Perhaps in certain places the Written Word does need the clarification of the teachings of the early disciples. Or we end up with what we have today 3000+ denominations saying everyone is wrong but us.

Look at this way if the Catholics are wrong there will a lot of people in heaven that were baptized but didn't need to be. However if the Protestants are wrong there may be many that aren't heaven. In this case I don't have problem with their cathechism taking precedence over scripture.

Hi Ed,

Above you said: "Look at this way if the Catholics are wrong there will a lot of people in heaven that were baptized but didn't need to be."

That is assuming that catholics will go to Heaven in the first place.

Which in view of their practice of praying to Mary and other dead people as well as worshiping the pope... well seems that as long as they are in the catholic church they don't have to be concerned about getting baptized!

You are now judging.
You are the one that says Catholics pray to Mary. From the Catholics I have talked to and questioned on the subject they all say they ask Mary to agree with them in prayer. I can't tell you if that is true or not because as scripture says only God can look at man's heart.

Do they worship the Pope or do they revere him? They say they revere him as God's appointed leader of their church. Scripture says God appoints leaders that are over us.

I know they do not pray to dead saints they pray that dead saints will agree with them in prayer. No Catholic that knows Catholicism would ever pray to a dead saint.

It might be a totally wrong practice to pray to Mary or a dead saint but I don't see it causing a harm unless their hope is in the saint instead of Jesus which they "say" is not the case.

But before I started placing them in the Lake of Fire I would like to be sure I'm qualified to do that. And scripture I read says I'm not.

[Reuben]

The Catholic catechism are not clarification of the Bible.They are an entire set of rules and regulations that are separate from the Bible. It is no different in principle then the Pharisees clinging to their Mishnah and Talmudic writings. Which was what Jesus really condemned. The Pharisees exalted them to equality and even beyond the laws of Moses. The Catholics do the exact same thing!

[Justaned]

The Catholic catechism are not clarification of the Bible.They are an entire set of rules and regulations that are separate from the Bible. It is no different in principle then the Pharisees clinging to their Mishnah and Talmudic writings. Which was what Jesus really condemned. The Pharisees exalted them to equality and even beyond the laws of Moses. The Catholics do the exact same thing!

Jesus did not condemn the Mishnah or the Talmudic writings what he condemned was the attitude toward them.
They took the truth and applied with it no tolerance and got legalism
Some mixed tolerance without the truth and got liberalism
Jesus wanted truth with tolerance to have a balanced teaching.

[Justaned]

The Catholic catechism are not clarification of the Bible.They are an entire set of rules and regulations that are separate from the Bible. It is no different in principle then the Pharisees clinging to their Mishnah and Talmudic writings. Which was what Jesus really condemned. The Pharisees exalted them to equality and even beyond the laws of Moses. The Catholics do the exact same thing!

While you may feel the Catholic Catechism is not a clarification of scripture that is exactly what the Catholics believe it is. You base your conclusion on the fact you don't like what they said. They base their conclusion on what they claim the early church fathers passed to them and by the inspiriation of the Holy Spirit.

Remember no where in scripture does it even suggest Sola Scriptura or to put it more plainly that the scripture is our sole guidance for Holy Living. It was the Reformers that made the call and they did it because that was the only way to get around Rome. Also remember even the Reformers Bible contained the Apocrypha which many denominations now remove.

[Reuben]

The Catholic catechism are not clarification of the Bible.They are an entire set of rules and regulations that are separate from the Bible. It is no different in principle then the Pharisees clinging to their Mishnah and Talmudic writings. Which was what Jesus really condemned. The Pharisees exalted them to equality and even beyond the laws of Moses. The Catholics do the exact same thing!

Jesus did not condemn the Mishnah or the Talmudic writings what he condemned was the attitude toward them.
They took the truth and applied with it no tolerance and got legalism
Some mixed tolerance without the truth and got liberalism
Jesus wanted truth with tolerance to have a balanced teaching.

That's not what Jesus said.

Matthew 15:1-9 (KJV)
1 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Jesus specifically refers to the tradition and its teachings and the adherence to them. It was not an attitude problem concerning the traditions, it was incorporating these traditions and in doing so they unseated the authority of the Word.

[Reuben]

Yes, I agree, go right to the source. http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a ... 23a9p6.htm

Do you see this in the Word?

2677 Holy Mary, Mother of God: With Elizabeth we marvel, "And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"36 Because she gives us Jesus, her son, Mary is Mother of God and our mother; we can entrust all our cares and petitions to her: she prays for us as she prayed for herself: "Let it be to me according to your word."37 By entrusting ourselves to her prayer, we abandon ourselves to the will of God together with her: "Thy will be done."

Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death: By asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the "Mother of Mercy," the All-Holy One. We give ourselves over to her now, in the Today of our lives. And our trust broadens further, already at the present moment, to surrender "the hour of our death" wholly to her care. May she be there as she was at her son's death on the cross. May she welcome us as our mother at the hour of our passing38 to lead us to her son, Jesus, in paradise.

2679 Mary is the perfect Orans (pray-er), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father, who sends his Son to save all men. Like the beloved disciple we welcome Jesus' mother into our homes,39 for she has become the mother of all the living. We can pray with and to her. The prayer of the Church is sustained by the prayer of Mary and united with it in hope.40

2675 Beginning with Mary's unique cooperation with the working of the Holy Spirit, the Churches developed their prayer to the holy Mother of God, centering it on the person of Christ manifested in his mysteries. In countless hymns and antiphons expressing this prayer, two movements usually alternate with one another: the first "magnifies" the Lord for the "great things" he did for his lowly servant and through her for all human beings29 the second entrusts the supplications and praises of the children of God to the Mother of Jesus, because she now knows the humanity which, in her, the Son of God espoused.