Dake Bible Discussion BoardPurgatory

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Reuben
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Purgatory

Post by Reuben » Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:01 am

One disturbing aspect about the Catholic doctrine of purgatory is the belief that man must, or that he even can, pay for his own sins. This, along with the Catholic misunderstanding of what the Bible teaches about how man is justified before God, results in a low view of the sufficiency and efficiency of Christ’s atonement on the cross. Simply put, the Roman Catholic viewpoint on salvation implies that Christ’s atonement on the cross was not sufficient payment for the sins of those who believe in Him, and that even a believer must atone for or pay for his own sins, either through acts of penance, or time in purgatory. Yet the Bible teaches over and over again that it is Christ’s death alone that can satisfy or propitiate God’s wrath against sinners (Romans 3:25; Hebrews 2:17; 1 John 2:2; 1 John 4:10). Our works of righteousness cannot add to what Christ has already accomplished.
http://www.gotquestions.org/difference- ... stant.html

I thought that was a good point brought out concerning the devaluing of the atonement of Christ.

I had a family in our church approach me years back about the passing of the man's brother. I attended the funeral outside of D.C. in a very large Catholic church. His family were all devout Catholics but the family in our church obviously came out of it. After the funeral and some time later he came to me upset. He shared with me that the church was demanding more money from his parents to get his brother out of purgatory. He was inflamed about it because his family had given so much to the church over the years and had given initially for this "getting out of purgatory" fee but later the clergy wanted more money. I personally think this is a sick twisted system that takes advantage of unfortunate circumstances.

I often wondered why people don't see the enumerable differences between the Catholic church and the bible until I read there own Catechism. They specifically state that their tradition is equal to the bible. Interesting isn't it?



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macca
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Re: Purgatory

Post by macca » Thu Apr 04, 2013 5:03 am

Reuben wrote:
One disturbing aspect about the Catholic doctrine of purgatory is the belief that man must, or that he even can, pay for his own sins. This, along with the Catholic misunderstanding of what the Bible teaches about how man is justified before God, results in a low view of the sufficiency and efficiency of Christ’s atonement on the cross. Simply put, the Roman Catholic viewpoint on salvation implies that Christ’s atonement on the cross was not sufficient payment for the sins of those who believe in Him, and that even a believer must atone for or pay for his own sins, either through acts of penance, or time in purgatory. Yet the Bible teaches over and over again that it is Christ’s death alone that can satisfy or propitiate God’s wrath against sinners (Romans 3:25; Hebrews 2:17; 1 John 2:2; 1 John 4:10). Our works of righteousness cannot add to what Christ has already accomplished.
http://www.gotquestions.org/difference- ... stant.html

I thought that was a good point brought out concerning the devaluing of the atonement of Christ.

I had a family in our church approach me years back about the passing of the man's brother. I attended the funeral outside of D.C. in a very large Catholic church. His family were all devout Catholics but the family in our church obviously came out of it. After the funeral and some time later he came to me upset. He shared with me that the church was demanding more money from his parents to get his brother out of purgatory. He was inflamed about it because his family had given so much to the church over the years and had given initially for this "getting out of purgatory" fee but later the clergy wanted more money. I personally think this is a sick twisted system that takes advantage of unfortunate circumstances.

I often wondered why people don't see the enumerable differences between the Catholic church and the bible until I read there own Catechism. They specifically state that their tradition is equal to the bible. Interesting isn't it?

My mother paid for 6 masses to be said to get my father out of purgatory,
My greatgrand mother left the Catholic Church money in her will for the same perpose, i have a copy so i know it for fact
the catholic church is a web of deceit.

macca



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Re: Purgatory

Post by titus213 » Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:59 am

Purgatory is a teaching which Romanists developed not from the Bible, but from the apocryphal books (2 Maccabees 12). Even in the Old Testament it was revealed that the unsaved dead no longer have any hope of reward or a change in status. Once a person departs this life, his eternal destiny is settled. That's why Solomon could say that a living dog is better off than a dead lion, because the living know that they will die. But the dead know nothing at all. There is no more reward for them. (Ecc. 9.4-5). And as you have mentioned, the saved dead have no need for a purging of sin, since Jesus already did that fully at Calvary.

So there can be no "prayers for the dead". There can be no such place as the never-land called Purgatory. Even for the greatest men of history, now -- and only now -- is the day of salvation. These are man-made concepts invented to open new ways for the poor people deceived by such doctrines to give more of their money to "Mother Church".



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Justaned
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Re: Purgatory

Post by Justaned » Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:09 am

macca wrote:My mother paid for 6 masses to be said to get my father out of purgatory,
My greatgrand mother left the Catholic Church money in her will for the same perpose, i have a copy so i know it for fact
the catholic church is a web of deceit.

macca
I know of a ton of Protestant people that left money to the church in their wills, with an unstated but underlying belief that it would improve their chances for reward in heaven.



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Justaned
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Re: Purgatory

Post by Justaned » Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:16 am

I have discussed the Bema seat judgement with a basically sound Baptist Pastor who believes the Millennium is a time of refinning those that died in Christ but never lived sanctified lives.

They aren't earning anything they are being refinned, purified, sanctified if you prefer doing this thousand year reign.

I mentioned it sounded like the Catholic purgatory to me and he was quick to defend against it saying it isn't a second chance, these people have all trusted in Christ for salvation but never lived the life. I always thought he was talking about people that made an emotional rather than spiritual response to a salvation call.

I find the whole thought process interesting in light of scripture that seems to infer we will be further refinned and the fact we know so little about the Bema seat judgement.



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Re: Purgatory

Post by bibleman » Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:22 am

Justaned wrote:
macca wrote:My mother paid for 6 masses to be said to get my father out of purgatory,
My greatgrand mother left the Catholic Church money in her will for the same perpose, i have a copy so i know it for fact
the catholic church is a web of deceit.

macca
I know of a ton of Protestant people that left money to the church in their wills, with an unstated but underlying belief that it would improve their chances for reward in heaven.
But Ed,...

A ton is 2000 lbs.

Think about it.

You would have to know at least 2000 people, personally to the point that you have discussed their death decisions with them.

You must know thousands and thousands of people.

PS - do you have time later that I could have some time to talk about my will? (smile)


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Justaned
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Re: Purgatory

Post by Justaned » Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:21 am

bibleman wrote:
Justaned wrote:
macca wrote:My mother paid for 6 masses to be said to get my father out of purgatory,
My greatgrand mother left the Catholic Church money in her will for the same perpose, i have a copy so i know it for fact
the catholic church is a web of deceit.

macca
I know of a ton of Protestant people that left money to the church in their wills, with an unstated but underlying belief that it would improve their chances for reward in heaven.
But Ed,...

A ton is 2000 lbs.

Think about it.

You would have to know at least 2000 people, personally to the point that you have discussed their death decisions with them.

You must know thousands and thousands of people.

PS - do you have time later that I could have some time to talk about my will? (smile)

And since people weigh more that 1 pound the number of people drops drastically. In fact if they were all 200 pounders then I would only have talked to 10.
And I have sat through more than a few funeral arrangements and will readings of the people I have had privilege to bury over the years. Not to mention people that have openly talked to me about their last wishes. And yes also the con artist pseudo Christians that inferred that leaving "something" to the church was a way to get a good seat in heaven.



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Re: Purgatory

Post by dolph » Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:35 pm

The whole concept of grace is not easily digested by the average "Christian". Think about it: as a child you are told that if you are good Santa will bring you lots of nice presents. Parents tell their children that if they're good they will get this or that reward. If you are a good student you will earn good grades. If you work hard you'll make a lot of money.

Sadly, many "Christian" parents tell their children that if they're good they'll go to Heaven. This happens because their whole life it's been the carrot or the stick based on performance. Even after hearing many a sermon on salvation by grace they average Joe has a tendency to snap back to the carrot/stick syndrome.

But for the Catholic Church to virtually still be selling indulgences is SHOCKING. Can you imagine the demonic spirits that must be running that church???



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Re: Purgatory

Post by Reuben » Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:54 pm

macca wrote:
Reuben wrote:
One disturbing aspect about the Catholic doctrine of purgatory is the belief that man must, or that he even can, pay for his own sins. This, along with the Catholic misunderstanding of what the Bible teaches about how man is justified before God, results in a low view of the sufficiency and efficiency of Christ’s atonement on the cross. Simply put, the Roman Catholic viewpoint on salvation implies that Christ’s atonement on the cross was not sufficient payment for the sins of those who believe in Him, and that even a believer must atone for or pay for his own sins, either through acts of penance, or time in purgatory. Yet the Bible teaches over and over again that it is Christ’s death alone that can satisfy or propitiate God’s wrath against sinners (Romans 3:25; Hebrews 2:17; 1 John 2:2; 1 John 4:10). Our works of righteousness cannot add to what Christ has already accomplished.
http://www.gotquestions.org/difference- ... stant.html

I thought that was a good point brought out concerning the devaluing of the atonement of Christ.

I had a family in our church approach me years back about the passing of the man's brother. I attended the funeral outside of D.C. in a very large Catholic church. His family were all devout Catholics but the family in our church obviously came out of it. After the funeral and some time later he came to me upset. He shared with me that the church was demanding more money from his parents to get his brother out of purgatory. He was inflamed about it because his family had given so much to the church over the years and had given initially for this "getting out of purgatory" fee but later the clergy wanted more money. I personally think this is a sick twisted system that takes advantage of unfortunate circumstances.

I often wondered why people don't see the enumerable differences between the Catholic church and the bible until I read there own Catechism. They specifically state that their tradition is equal to the bible. Interesting isn't it?

My mother paid for 6 masses to be said to get my father out of purgatory,
My greatgrand mother left the Catholic Church money in her will for the same perpose, i have a copy so i know it for fact
the catholic church is a web of deceit.

macca
Thanks for sharing Maaca. That is so sad, but too common unfortunately.



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Re: Purgatory

Post by titus213 » Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:05 pm

One of the saddest facts of church history is that from the the age just after the apostles and onward the church fell more and more into serious error regarding how a person is saved, with grace and faith giving way to legalism and the doing of good works as the way to attain the favor of God. The carrot-and-stick approach you mention runs virtually all through the writings of the church fathers. This is one reason why Romanism cannot break out of a works-salvation approach, with her insistence on holding so-called Tradition on an even par with Scripture.

It sure seems as though Paul's efforts to warn the Galatians didn't carry through to the early church and its leaders. And the same tendency is all around us in Protestant circles, as well. The natural man naturally leans toward a rewards and punishment way of thinking; and since we naturally believe we can pull ourselves up by our own bootstraps and do for ourselves whatever it is that God requires for salvation, it's not surprising to find self-salvation as a main feature even in those churches which would theoretically deny that people can save themselves.

The true church of Jesus Christ has to be on guard, in every generation, against this natural tendency to think that man can save himself with, at most, a little help from God. Jesus came to seek and save the lost.



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