Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ When Christians Die of Cancer

[tomas555]

Show me just one place where Jesus prayed to the Father for healing the sick. Where he was checking whether it is God's will to heal or suffer.

And if the sickness is good for you to learn something, why taking medicine to stop it? Why not just pray to the Father to speed it's progress so you can learn faster? Why ask the One who gave it to you to remove it?

Why would normal society put such a father to jail, only for badly hurting his kids in order to teach them a lesson?

And why so called "Christians" dare to say such Father is in Heaven?

And check Dake's notes on chastisement I think it's in Heb 12???

God bless

[branham1965]

WHAT i do not like are people badmouthing anybody in these situations.im not talking about Reverend Bible.Grady's article is a public domain thing....or whatever they call it.

im talking when someone gets on the loved ones of the deceased.or mock them.yuou didnt have enough faith.those kind

one JEZEBEL said to me =3000 miles in the Pacific Northwest......she brazenly said why if your preacher was a man of faith why did he die in hid early 60's....

theres no place no part nor lot for that .people need to shut their fat sassy mouths on this.please dont misunderstand me on this.

[DanW]

It's interesting that the New Testament only records Jesus healing, not turning away. And where it is stated or implied that some did not receive, such as at the pool of Bethesda, or in Jesus home town, it leaves no one guessing as to why.
The Calvinistic doctrine of a sovereign God who leaves us guessing in spite of giving us His Word is more closely aligned with the worlds understanding than with a true Bible faith.

Several decades of criticism and confusion have made it religiously-incorrect to suggest that someone's faith was not up to snuff. But it is the single best answer to why people fail to receive. Furthermore, if you study faith even a little, it's easy to see where people are with it. The majority of the time when I read about someone who supposedly was in solid unwavering faith for healing, etc, the words of their own mouth indict them. You simply can't sing the devils song and call it praise.

Mr Grady, whom I almost never enjoy reading after since he only seems interested in finding fault everywhere, reveals his ignorance here too. He states that in Charismatic circles, we've been taught that God always heals. First of all, the type of churches he goes to probably all take the sovereignty approach. Second, that isn't what Word of Faith, Dake, or any other faith-healing ministry teaches that I know of.
What they do teach is that it is God's will to heal. There is no more guarantee of your receiving that promise than there is of receiving any other promise if the conditions of faith and obedience along with corresponding actions are not met.

One thing Grady is right about. We don't have all the answers. It seems sometimes unknown circumstances prevent the manifestation we are after. We see prominent ministers fail to receive healing and it bothers us. It's not our -place to pass judgement on someones faith or walk with God. Some things we simply won't know until later.

However, we can't adjust the Bible to meet our experience and failure in life. Let the Word of God stand. There are many provisions in the Bible that Christians are failing to receive. Healing is just one of them. Prosperity is another, and there are some in this forum, who after failing to receive, choose to criticize and find fault instead of learn and acknowledge the truth.

Ok, I've gone long enough. Back to my TV evangelists.

[DanW]

WHAT i do not like are people badmouthing anybody in these situations.im not talking about Reverend Bible.Grady's article is a public domain thing....or whatever they call it.

im talking when someone gets on the loved ones of the deceased.or mock them.yuou didnt have enough faith.those kind

one JEZEBEL said to me =3000 miles in the Pacific Northwest......she brazenly said why if your preacher was a man of faith why did he die in hid early 60's....

theres no place no part nor lot for that .people need to shut their fat sassy mouths on this.please dont misunderstand me on this.

Agreed. So true.

[tomas555]

I did not blast anybody's faith, what I've blasted was the wrong mindset and people who are telling us, God is a vengeful person, exploiting his children even if Jesus shows us differently.

If a man cannot explain somebody's premature death, let him shut up instead of blaming God or His insufficient promises.

We must learn how to use what's in us. The greatest gift from God. Holy Spirit.

Let's not mark devil or sickness as God's agents.

Blessings

[Gebo]

Macca, I have a question for you. If you prayed & fasted for an entire veteran's hospital full of wounded soldiers with missing limbs. Are they going to be healed ?

What about praying & fasting for the school for the blind & deaf to be emptied ?

At the school for the deaf, Every year, there are about 3 to 5 Deaf students or Deaf staff getting healed out of a school of maybe 500 to the biggest Deaf schools holding 1,500 students.

I may not have the correct understanding of healing when it comes to the Bible but this I do know is that Miracles do happen.

My, my, this has been an interesting discussion. I'm feeling now is a good time to jump in. Please note, "most" of what I am about to post is my OPINION. Just opinion. I just witnessed one of my members lose her earthly life to cancer so this is an emotional topic for me. I watched her die with the most beautiful smile on her face and her face stayed that way after she passed. It really was awesome to witness.

Anyways, I'm not sure everyone understands what the phrase "thorn in the flesh" means. Please try and forget what you were taught and truly search for the truth. The best 5 minute teaching on it was done by Bill Johnson and Randy Clark. Google it and find the video. Basically, all references in OT are speaking of the "thorn in the flesh" as attacks by people. Read 2 Cor 12:10 for what I believe is the answer to what it is. I believe it refers to attacks by people and in NOT a disease.

Please read Matt 13:57-58. Unbelief does have a part to play in God's "effectiveness."
Please read Mark 8:22-5. Even Jesus touched this blind man twice before he got his 100% healing.

Jesus' purpose was to preach the good news and destroy the works of the devil. I know His will as Jesus is perfect theology. He was obeying His Father so by Jesus' actions we can know Father's will.

I have seen more than one person healed only to lose their healing a week later up to several months down the road. In my opinion, their words and actions had something to do with their losing their healing. In other words, their lack of faith. One particular person with cancer had it for the third time. He told us to not pray for his healing as he was tired and ready to go home. One lady, by lab tests results, was show in remission but she decided to go to another Dr. for verification. Cancer came back in her body within a month. I cannot explain everyone's actions. I don't know their heart. They may be claiming one thing but deep down believing another....

From watching and participating in several people's death to cancer, I believe many get so tired of fighting that they decide it's time to die. I've seen people with cancer have their countenances change in a matter of days. It's like you can tell they have "given up" and I don't mean that in a negative way. I've left rooms knowing in my spirit they had changed their minds about living and were ready to die. Understand, I am only making observations. I truly hope this is not coming across as insensitive with me blaming everyone's sickness and disease on their lack of faith. I AM NOT saying that. We all have choices to makes. Some people's faith may be in their afterlife and not in their healing. That doesn't make them "bad" or "weak" people. I've never had cancer (that I know of) and I don't know what goes through a persons mind. Never the less, I know God's will is for all of us to be healed and walk in divine health.

It is hard to get around Mark 11:22-26.

[Gebo]

Macca, I have a question for you. If you prayed & fasted for an entire veteran's hospital full of wounded soldiers with missing limbs. Are they going to be healed ?

What about praying & fasting for the school for the blind & deaf to be emptied ?

At the school for the deaf, Every year, there are about 3 to 5 Deaf students or Deaf staff getting healed out of a school of maybe 500 to the biggest Deaf schools holding 1,500 students.

I may not have the correct understanding of healing when it comes to the Bible but this I do know is that Miracles do happen.

I may be wrong but if missing limbs are restored I believe that would be a miracle. Not a healing, per se. It would be a creative miracle.

[Justaned]

Paul's thorn, Graceforme, you equate Paul's thorn with sickness and disease.....

But Paul calls it "The messenger of Satan" to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 2 cor. 12:7; it was an angel of satan that followed Paul around and buffeted him when he was tempted to exalt himself. Paul lists these buffets in 2 cor. 11: 23-27; sickness and disease is not mentioned by Paul anywhere.

Do you think God would have respect of persons as far as Paul is concerned?

In Acts 10:38; How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power: Who went about DOING GOOD, AND HEALING ALL THAT WERE OPPRESSED OF THE DEVIL; FOR GOD WAS WITH HIM.

Jesus healed ALL that were oppressed of the devil so what makes you think Paul is any different from the All?

No where in the NT was anyone turned away from getting their healing or deliverance when they asked for it.

If you are going to use Paul's thorn as an excuse for your unbelief as far as healing goes, then where are your abundance of revelations, where are your Nt books that make up most of the nt?????


then at the end of your statement you put all the blame over onto God by stating "and God's plans are always perfect" so by this i am led to believe sickness comes from God?????

macca

Macca
Research, Study and Evidence leads MOST experts to believe Paul's thorn was a physical disease, that he had a serious but common eye disease of the time. It rendered him very hard of seeing. But a side of the disease was it made the eyes swell, turn very red and pus oozed from them. Not something a public figure wants or needs to deal with. I kept Paul humble as I'm sure it would keep anyone. Paul mentioned his disease many times as has been discussed over and over on this forum.

NOW THAT SAID READ CAREFULLY WHAT I WILL SAY NEXT.

Paul I believe was an exception, by that I mean Paul more than any of us did need something to keep him humble. Who of us ever went into the third heaven and saw what Paul saw.

That said I also want to say this.

I believe God does heal us. I believe that with all my heart. I also know there are times God does not heal us this side of heaven. I do not know why. Nor do I try to affix blame. I trust God and that was what was decided.

The article by Grady was excellent talking about one of those times God doesn't heal us this side of heaven.

Grady's article didn't say stop praying for a healing nor am I. It was saying we have to learn to trust God. If we see a healing then praise God but if we don't see a healing we must also praise God. Just as Job did.

If someone's faith for healing is weakened by someone saying God doesn't always heal this side of heaven then that person has the problem not the person that said God doesn't always heal this side of heaven.

They need to ask themselves in what is their faith based? Is is based on what God does that they can see manifested or is it based on what God said? God never said He would heal everyone this side of heaven, but God did say you can trust Me, I will be with you in ALL things and I will make ALL things work to your good if you love me and are called to my purpose.

If you want to believe God always heals fine I will not say anything more to the contrary.

But what I will say is in all things pray to the Father trusting that He does hear us, and knowing that whatever the outcome our Father is in our corner and is moving heaven and earth for our benefit, for our good because He promised He would.

[bibleman]

Macca, I have a question for you. If you prayed & fasted for an entire veteran's hospital full of wounded soldiers with missing limbs. Are they going to be healed ?

What about praying & fasting for the school for the blind & deaf to be emptied ?

At the school for the deaf, Every year, there are about 3 to 5 Deaf students or Deaf staff getting healed out of a school of maybe 500 to the biggest Deaf schools holding 1,500 students.

I may not have the correct understanding of healing when it comes to the Bible but this I do know is that Miracles do happen.

My, my, this has been an interesting discussion. I'm feeling now is a good time to jump in. Please note, "most" of what I am about to post is my OPINION. Just opinion. I just witnessed one of my members lose her earthly life to cancer so this is an emotional topic for me. I watched her die with the most beautiful smile on her face and her face stayed that way after she passed. It really was awesome to witness.

Anyways, I'm not sure everyone understands what the phrase "thorn in the flesh" means. Please try and forget what you were taught and truly search for the truth. The best 5 minute teaching on it was done by Bill Johnson and Randy Clark. Google it and find the video. Basically, all references in OT are speaking of the "thorn in the flesh" as attacks by people. Read 2 Cor 12:10 for what I believe is the answer to what it is. I believe it refers to attacks by people and in NOT a disease.

Please read Matt 13:57-58. Unbelief does have a part to play in God's "effectiveness."
Please read Mark 8:22-5. Even Jesus touched this blind man twice before he got his 100% healing.

Jesus' purpose was to preach the good news and destroy the works of the devil. I know His will as Jesus is perfect theology. He was obeying His Father so by Jesus' actions we can know Father's will.

I have seen more than one person healed only to lose their healing a week later up to several months down the road. In my opinion, their words and actions had something to do with their losing their healing. In other words, their lack of faith. One particular person with cancer had it for the third time. He told us to not pray for his healing as he was tired and ready to go home. One lady, by lab tests results, was show in remission but she decided to go to another Dr. for verification. Cancer came back in her body within a month. I cannot explain everyone's actions. I don't know their heart. They may be claiming one thing but deep down believing another....

From watching and participating in several people's death to cancer, I believe many get so tired of fighting that they decide it's time to die. I've seen people with cancer have their countenances change in a matter of days. It's like you can tell they have "given up" and I don't mean that in a negative way. I've left rooms knowing in my spirit they had changed their minds about living and were ready to die. Understand, I am only making observations. I truly hope this is not coming across as insensitive with me blaming everyone's sickness and disease on their lack of faith. I AM NOT saying that. We all have choices to makes. Some people's faith may be in their afterlife and not in their healing. That doesn't make them "bad" or "weak" people. I've never had cancer (that I know of) and I don't know what goes through a persons mind. Never the less, I know God's will is for all of us to be healed and walk in divine health.

It is hard to get around Mark 11:22-26.

Thanks for sharing and welcome to the Dake Board!

[Reuben]

Research, Study and Evidence leads MOST experts to believe Paul's thorn was a physical disease, that he had a serious but common eye disease of the time. It rendered him very hard of seeing. But a side of the disease was it made the eyes swell, turn very red and pus oozed from them. Not something a public figure wants or needs to deal with. I kept Paul humble as I'm sure it would keep anyone. Paul mentioned his disease many times as has been discussed over and over on this forum.

2 Corinthians 12:7-10 (KJV)
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

I also believe that when we take the promises of God, and make them options to God, we weaken our resolve in who we believe. If God is making decisions based upon something else than His own promises then we have a violation of His own Word.