Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ sin to have a beard
Re: sin to have a beard
There is still no verses of children died before the age of reason, judged guilty because of their parents' sins. All these verses simply tell us curses incurred to children because of parents' sins, which is only applicable for the earthly life, not for the next life. The logical answer for me is these children will not receive salvation by faith but when they face the final judgement they will not be judged guilty.
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branham1965
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Re: sin to have a beard
STAND
i was not posting in that regard.i was saying that people and their families repented and believed and responded as the Apostles "ordered" them.they accepted the divine imperatives of repentance,faith,water baptism and the Holy Ghost Baptism AS divine imperatives.not options.
the bizzare unbelievable idea that innocent babies or little children younglings before the age of accountability are hellbound ....originated with the
Cannanites,Perrizzites,Hittites,Amalekites,Philistines and other Devil ruled nations JEHOVAH GOD destroyed because of there unspeakable sins,their vile sexual perversions AND they sacrificed their babies and little children to their demon gods!!!!! a thought that had not even come up into the mind of JEHOVAH GOD!!!!
this awful teaching:
1.is wholly unscriptural
2.is utterly diabolical.its origins are 1 Tim 4:1ff
3.is the impossibility of reason
i was not posting in that regard.i was saying that people and their families repented and believed and responded as the Apostles "ordered" them.they accepted the divine imperatives of repentance,faith,water baptism and the Holy Ghost Baptism AS divine imperatives.not options.
the bizzare unbelievable idea that innocent babies or little children younglings before the age of accountability are hellbound ....originated with the
Cannanites,Perrizzites,Hittites,Amalekites,Philistines and other Devil ruled nations JEHOVAH GOD destroyed because of there unspeakable sins,their vile sexual perversions AND they sacrificed their babies and little children to their demon gods!!!!! a thought that had not even come up into the mind of JEHOVAH GOD!!!! this awful teaching:
1.is wholly unscriptural
2.is utterly diabolical.its origins are 1 Tim 4:1ff
3.is the impossibility of reason
stand wrote:There is still no verses of children died before the age of reason, judged guilty because of their parents' sins. All these verses simply tell us curses incurred to children because of parents' sins, which is only applicable for the earthly life, not for the next life. The logical answer for me is these children will not receive salvation by faith but when they face the final judgement they will not be judged guilty.
Re: sin to have a beard
I just believe in what is in the bible. These children cannot believe in Jesus for they do not know Jesus rationally while they are in the earth. God will not judge them guilty for they have performed no sins. Their uncleanness is mentioned but that could only influence them while they are on the earth and thus they are cursed while they are on th earth because of their parents. I trust God will find them not guilty and give them the best place for their eternity and I cannot see them end up in hell.
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Justaned
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Re: sin to have a beard
stand wrote:I just believe in what is in the bible. These children cannot believe in Jesus for they do not know Jesus rationally while they are in the earth. God will not judge them guilty for they have performed no sins. Their uncleanness is mentioned but that could only influence them while they are on the earth and thus they are cursed while they are on th earth because of their parents. I trust God will find them not guilty and give them the best place for their eternity and I cannot see them end up in hell.
I agree in fact the teaching they end up in hell is straight from the horrific theology known as Calvinism.
Re: sin to have a beard
The Bible uses such expressions as "sanctified" and "clean/unclean" in more than one sense. Sometimes it uses them in a ceremonial sense, other times in a moral sense. For example, when a leper was regarded as "unclean" it wasn't a statement about his moral character, but about his ability to attend Jewish ceremonies.
Paul is using the terms in 1 Cor. 7 in their ceremonial sense, not in their moral sense. Paul is simply pointing out that even when there is only one believing partner in a marriage, the unbelieving partner is set apart (from those in a totally pagan marriage) and comes under the influence of the Holy Spirit in the home. The Bible never endorses the idea that one person's faith can "stand in" for another. As Dake points out, "it could not mean that the Christian could save the soul of the unbeliever".
In the same way, his comments about "unclean" and "holy" children are to be understood in their ceremonial sense, not in their moral sense. Paul says it is because of the sanctified status of the unbeliever (not the faith of the believer) that the children are not regarded as unclean. To both the many Jewish converts who were part of the Corinthian church, as well as to the Gentile converts, the typical pagan rituals which children went through in dedication to the pagan gods made these children ceremonially unclean. Presumably, in a family where an unbelieving spouse was willing to live in harmony with a believer under the "set apart" condition Paul has described, such pagan rituals were not performed for the children. Thus, they are holy, also enjoying the benefits and influence of the Holy Spirit working through the Christian mom or dad.
Paul is therefore not contradicting himself. In his letter to the Romans he wrote "sin is not imputed when there is no law". Those who have no consciousness of law (infants and young children, those with mental impairment, etc) do not have sin imputed to them. But what about the sinful human nature we're all born with? This is where those verses which tell us that Christ is the actual Savior of the whole world (and not only those who believe) come into play. When Jesus died he took the sin of the world upon himself as the Lamb of God. He tasted death for every man. He is the propitiation not for our sins only, but also for the whole world. He reconciled God to the world. His death removed every obstacle in the mind of God which would prevent him from pardoning the sinner, except the sinner's wilful opposition to God and rejection of him. No one is sent to hell because they have a fallen human nature.
Paul is using the terms in 1 Cor. 7 in their ceremonial sense, not in their moral sense. Paul is simply pointing out that even when there is only one believing partner in a marriage, the unbelieving partner is set apart (from those in a totally pagan marriage) and comes under the influence of the Holy Spirit in the home. The Bible never endorses the idea that one person's faith can "stand in" for another. As Dake points out, "it could not mean that the Christian could save the soul of the unbeliever".
In the same way, his comments about "unclean" and "holy" children are to be understood in their ceremonial sense, not in their moral sense. Paul says it is because of the sanctified status of the unbeliever (not the faith of the believer) that the children are not regarded as unclean. To both the many Jewish converts who were part of the Corinthian church, as well as to the Gentile converts, the typical pagan rituals which children went through in dedication to the pagan gods made these children ceremonially unclean. Presumably, in a family where an unbelieving spouse was willing to live in harmony with a believer under the "set apart" condition Paul has described, such pagan rituals were not performed for the children. Thus, they are holy, also enjoying the benefits and influence of the Holy Spirit working through the Christian mom or dad.
Paul is therefore not contradicting himself. In his letter to the Romans he wrote "sin is not imputed when there is no law". Those who have no consciousness of law (infants and young children, those with mental impairment, etc) do not have sin imputed to them. But what about the sinful human nature we're all born with? This is where those verses which tell us that Christ is the actual Savior of the whole world (and not only those who believe) come into play. When Jesus died he took the sin of the world upon himself as the Lamb of God. He tasted death for every man. He is the propitiation not for our sins only, but also for the whole world. He reconciled God to the world. His death removed every obstacle in the mind of God which would prevent him from pardoning the sinner, except the sinner's wilful opposition to God and rejection of him. No one is sent to hell because they have a fallen human nature.
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frenchie
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Re: sin to have a beard
Hi!
Fatherfisher wrote:
This is where those verses which tell us that Christ is the actual Savior of the whole world (and not only those who believe) come into play. When Jesus died he took the sin of the world upon himself as the Lamb of God. He tasted death for every man. He is the propitiation not for our sins only, but also for the whole world. He reconciled God to the world. His death removed every obstacle in the mind of God which would prevent him from pardoning the sinner, except the sinner's wilful opposition to God and rejection of him. No one is sent to hell because they have a fallen human nature.
frenchie reply:
Very interesting statement. In my mind,it open heaven's doors to more people that we usualy juges.It means to me that if someone does'nt reject totaly God he can be born again (acording to the light he received) from God before he dies without human intervention but by God's grace alone.
But does this contradict sound doctrine? I look foward to read how others members of the forum might view this.
Fatherfisher wrote:
This is where those verses which tell us that Christ is the actual Savior of the whole world (and not only those who believe) come into play. When Jesus died he took the sin of the world upon himself as the Lamb of God. He tasted death for every man. He is the propitiation not for our sins only, but also for the whole world. He reconciled God to the world. His death removed every obstacle in the mind of God which would prevent him from pardoning the sinner, except the sinner's wilful opposition to God and rejection of him. No one is sent to hell because they have a fallen human nature.
frenchie reply:
Very interesting statement. In my mind,it open heaven's doors to more people that we usualy juges.It means to me that if someone does'nt reject totaly God he can be born again (acording to the light he received) from God before he dies without human intervention but by God's grace alone.
But does this contradict sound doctrine? I look foward to read how others members of the forum might view this.
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branham1965
- Little Children, Let No Man Deceive You: He that Doeth Righteousness is Righteous, Even as He is Righteous
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Re: sin to have a beard
frenchie
i was watching Les Feldick one day.and he used John 1:9 "That was the true Light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world."
he said he had never seen it quite that way before.but he did not elaborate.he said admirably he did not understand it.
Pastor Russell felt this meant that every accountable human being ever born of a woman would get one full fair opportunity to accept the Lord.most of these would be in the Millennium.if they did they would be blessed with the prospect of eternal life on the new earth.as they obeyed and time passed they would become more conformed to our first parents before the fall.ALL of the world of mankind would receive this chance.if this full fair chance was rejected they would die the second death.eternal extinction-not torment from which there is no recovery.(actually i think some of Reverend's teaching on this time period was influenced???by Pastor Russell.)
this was not the Church class.their hope was not heavenly but earthly.those priests who fail to keep their consecration vows but wash their robes in the Blood of the Lamb though losing their Crowns do not sin unto death and lose their lives.they will be part of the great company.a heavenly spiritual class but NOT the little flock.the little flock ruling as kings and priests in heaven is the high calling and is only for the ELECT CLASS little flock the 144,000 Spirit begotten consecrated unto death priests who upon their BIRTH in the resurrection will reign with Jesus to bless all the families of the earth.
i was watching Les Feldick one day.and he used John 1:9 "That was the true Light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world."
he said he had never seen it quite that way before.but he did not elaborate.he said admirably he did not understand it.
Pastor Russell felt this meant that every accountable human being ever born of a woman would get one full fair opportunity to accept the Lord.most of these would be in the Millennium.if they did they would be blessed with the prospect of eternal life on the new earth.as they obeyed and time passed they would become more conformed to our first parents before the fall.ALL of the world of mankind would receive this chance.if this full fair chance was rejected they would die the second death.eternal extinction-not torment from which there is no recovery.(actually i think some of Reverend's teaching on this time period was influenced???by Pastor Russell.)
this was not the Church class.their hope was not heavenly but earthly.those priests who fail to keep their consecration vows but wash their robes in the Blood of the Lamb though losing their Crowns do not sin unto death and lose their lives.they will be part of the great company.a heavenly spiritual class but NOT the little flock.the little flock ruling as kings and priests in heaven is the high calling and is only for the ELECT CLASS little flock the 144,000 Spirit begotten consecrated unto death priests who upon their BIRTH in the resurrection will reign with Jesus to bless all the families of the earth.
frenchie wrote:Hi!
Fatherfisher wrote:
This is where those verses which tell us that Christ is the actual Savior of the whole world (and not only those who believe) come into play. When Jesus died he took the sin of the world upon himself as the Lamb of God. He tasted death for every man. He is the propitiation not for our sins only, but also for the whole world. He reconciled God to the world. His death removed every obstacle in the mind of God which would prevent him from pardoning the sinner, except the sinner's wilful opposition to God and rejection of him. No one is sent to hell because they have a fallen human nature.
frenchie reply:
Very interesting statement. In my mind,it open heaven's doors to more people that we usualy juges.It means to me that if someone does'nt reject totaly God he can be born again (acording to the light he received) from God before he dies without human intervention but by God's grace alone.
But does this contradict sound doctrine? I look foward to read how others members of the forum might view this.
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branham1965
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Re: sin to have a beard
i should have added that he taught the Church was the ecclesia all the called out ones from Jerusalem until ???there was-is great debate as to whether the door to the high calling has closed.
these are the Spirit begotten sons and daughters of God.those who have made a Covenant with Jehovah by sacrifice Psalm 50:5 Romans 12:1ff.
this alone is the Bride .the Lamb's wife.144,000 spiritual Israelites.the Israel of God presented to God as a chaste VIRGINS to Christ cf 2 COR 11:2.
the Church class is made up of Jews Gentiles etc.
the Great Company was mentioned above .they are Crown losers.
the next ELECT CLASS is what he called the Ancient worthies=the Old Testament Saints.cf HEB 11.
some say those who consecrate today are Youthful worthies.
finally the world of mankind.which has the hope of Acts 3:21 the Restitution of all things.
the whole earth groaneth and travaileth for the manifestation of these sons of God Romans 8.
worldwide Peace and Order will come forever under the Prince of Peace.as the Desire of all Nations will have come.Haggai 2:7.
its interesting.i have found these teachings found there way into many groups turn of the century....1900's some Pentecostals =big names=believed in soul sleep in the early years of the great outpouring.
and other things.i was fascinated to see the groups who were MILLENIAL froim Russells,Millers,Sanford's,Dowies, had great similarities in certain areas.
ONE CONSTANT WAS THEY WERE VERY DEDICATED.VERY CONSECRATED .TOTALLY SOLD OUT.THEY WOULD ROLL OVER IN THEIR TOMBS AT OUR DAY....
these are the Spirit begotten sons and daughters of God.those who have made a Covenant with Jehovah by sacrifice Psalm 50:5 Romans 12:1ff.
this alone is the Bride .the Lamb's wife.144,000 spiritual Israelites.the Israel of God presented to God as a chaste VIRGINS to Christ cf 2 COR 11:2.
the Church class is made up of Jews Gentiles etc.the Great Company was mentioned above .they are Crown losers.
the next ELECT CLASS is what he called the Ancient worthies=the Old Testament Saints.cf HEB 11.
some say those who consecrate today are Youthful worthies.
finally the world of mankind.which has the hope of Acts 3:21 the Restitution of all things.
the whole earth groaneth and travaileth for the manifestation of these sons of God Romans 8.
worldwide Peace and Order will come forever under the Prince of Peace.as the Desire of all Nations will have come.Haggai 2:7.
its interesting.i have found these teachings found there way into many groups turn of the century....1900's some Pentecostals =big names=believed in soul sleep in the early years of the great outpouring.
and other things.i was fascinated to see the groups who were MILLENIAL froim Russells,Millers,Sanford's,Dowies, had great similarities in certain areas.
ONE CONSTANT WAS THEY WERE VERY DEDICATED.VERY CONSECRATED .TOTALLY SOLD OUT.THEY WOULD ROLL OVER IN THEIR TOMBS AT OUR DAY....
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branham1965
- Little Children, Let No Man Deceive You: He that Doeth Righteousness is Righteous, Even as He is Righteous
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Re: sin to have a beard
BE IT KNOWN
im not a Russellite.or a follower of these other good people.i believe they had serious flaws in their theologies.
we all might need some help there.
as the Bishop says the hardest thing in the world to do is to get folks to admit they are ........ wrong.
with some it is totally impossible.i believe God directly could not convince some people.
if we are not dead now.Rom 6-8....we will be dead then.....
im not a Russellite.or a follower of these other good people.i believe they had serious flaws in their theologies.
we all might need some help there.
as the Bishop says the hardest thing in the world to do is to get folks to admit they are ........ wrong.
with some it is totally impossible.i believe God directly could not convince some people.
if we are not dead now.Rom 6-8....we will be dead then.....
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frenchie
- Wrestle Against Principalities
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Re: sin to have a beard
Branham 1976 wrote:
Pastor Russell felt this meant that every accountable human being ever born of a woman would get one full fair opportunity to accept the Lord.
I agree with that and i beleive i had many fair opportunity before i finaly surrender to Him.
Branham 1976 wrote:
most of these would be in the Millennium.if they did they would be blessed with the prospect of eternal life on the new earth.
I dont understand how this could be the case since the second resurection come only after the millenium.
You are more learned than me Billy, most of the people you mention i dont even know and some of the things they teach i hear for the first time and it sound strange to me sometimes.
Pastor Russell felt this meant that every accountable human being ever born of a woman would get one full fair opportunity to accept the Lord.
I agree with that and i beleive i had many fair opportunity before i finaly surrender to Him.
Branham 1976 wrote:
most of these would be in the Millennium.if they did they would be blessed with the prospect of eternal life on the new earth.
I dont understand how this could be the case since the second resurection come only after the millenium.
You are more learned than me Billy, most of the people you mention i dont even know and some of the things they teach i hear for the first time and it sound strange to me sometimes.