Dake Bible Discussion BoardOSAS vs Losing Salvation

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Grandfather
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Re: OSAS vs Losing Salvation

Post by Grandfather » Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:24 pm

luchnia wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:38 pm
Grandfather wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:41 am
So, for God to be unchanging, the same, "time" must be different than our current understanding of past, present, future. It is one of the mysteries that we cannot fully grasp this side of eternity. It is something we view through a glass darkly.
I tend to agree with this. I don't think the amount of brain cells I have and the amount of understanding I contain will bring me to understand the concept of time. I get a lot of it, yet there is a cloudiness to various aspects of it. I think there is conceptual knowledge with this subject that we cannot grasp. So many questions care not answered in scripture which ultimately confuses it for me.

Just think, while we are awake we use time as a reference whether it be the sun, the moon, a clock, etc., but what happens when you go to sleep? I have seen people confuse morning and evening before and days as well. Maybe there is more to being "present" in the moment than we realize :smile:
I have heard it explained like this: There is time in God, but there is no time outside of God.



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Re: OSAS vs Losing Salvation

Post by Spiritblade Disciple » Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:29 am

Grandfather wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:02 pm
Time has to have a beginning. If there were an infinite number of days prior to today then today would never have arrived.
That is an interesting hypothesis. However, to me this sounds like a denial of the very concept of eternity: time without beginning or end.
Grandfather wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:02 pm
I will not take the "time" to explain the concept but direct you here... https://crossexamined.org/why-god-is-not-in-time/
At least some of the ideas applied to God in the linked article seem contrary to God's revelation of Himself within the pages of the Bible, to me.


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Grandfather
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Re: OSAS vs Losing Salvation

Post by Grandfather » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:17 pm

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:29 am
Grandfather wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:02 pm
Time has to have a beginning. If there were an infinite number of days prior to today then today would never have arrived.
That is an interesting hypothesis. However, to me this sounds like a denial of the very concept of eternity: time without beginning or end.
Grandfather wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:02 pm
I will not take the "time" to explain the concept but direct you here... https://crossexamined.org/why-god-is-not-in-time/
At least some of the ideas applied to God in the linked article seem contrary to God's revelation of Himself within the pages of the Bible, to me.
As I have stated before, time as we know it began "in the beginning...". Since the Bible was written in dimensions of time, it is constrained by the language of time.



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luchnia
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Re: OSAS vs Losing Salvation

Post by luchnia » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:18 pm

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:29 am
Grandfather wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:02 pm
Time has to have a beginning. If there were an infinite number of days prior to today then today would never have arrived.
That is an interesting hypothesis. However, to me this sounds like a denial of the very concept of eternity: time without beginning or end.
Grandfather wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:02 pm
I will not take the "time" to explain the concept but direct you here... https://crossexamined.org/why-god-is-not-in-time/
At least some of the ideas applied to God in the linked article seem contrary to God's revelation of Himself within the pages of the Bible, to me.
Time is a most interesting concept especially in light of time without end or eternity. Consider the possibility of time, or really the measurement thereof, being basically for man and some other realms of existence to be able to perceive ages or periods as something to reference. I realize that God moves within that concept, but not necessarily bound by it. It is possible that it is a continuous loop that never ends that allows constant change which we perceive as time.

The one thing that does evade me though is that God is never mentioned as young from the biblical records. If God was never young then can God be old? I hope my point comes across in this. Jesus passed time on earth. How does that equate into the realm of heaven? Could eternity have no beginning or ending, simply distance looping over and over, yet presence is always new or "now".

Think of it this way, to us history is only something we remember happening or recorded as occurring at a certain point in past time. The moment now is always present and future is always out there somewhere to become the now. When any foreknowledged future event occurs, at that point it is now or present.


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Grandfather
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Re: OSAS vs Losing Salvation

Post by Grandfather » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:33 pm

It is because of God there is the dimension we call TIME. Since we believe, or I hope this forum believes, that God created all things, one of those "things" is TIME. So, without God, there would be no dimension of time.

And because you and I are bound by the dimension of TIME it is difficult to imagine a world without time. But pause for a moment. How will you recognize a loved one in heaven? Will I see her as "my mom" or will she appear as the beautiful bride my dad saw walk down the aisle? If we, being transformed, are no longer bound by time, it would be possible that I saw her as "MOM" and she and my father saw either other as Bride and Groom. And that would be while we all spoke with each other.



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Re: OSAS vs Losing Salvation

Post by Spiritblade Disciple » Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:55 pm

Does the Bible teach that time is a created thing? If so, what passages most clearly reveal that time is a created thing?


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Grandfather
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Re: OSAS vs Losing Salvation

Post by Grandfather » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:12 pm

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:55 pm
Does the Bible teach that time is a created thing? If so, what passages most clearly reveal that time is a created thing?
As I wrote before, but I will try again.

1) Is time a "thing"? Seriously that is an honest question.
2) Are all things created by God?


If the answer to the first and second questions are YES, then you have your answer as to the Bible revealing God created time.

If you answer NO to the second question, then sorry there is nothing I can do to help you at this point.

If you answer NO to the first question, then God is no longer the only uncreated thing as He must share that with time. And that would also mean his is not Omni (fill in the blank because there are several He would fail at.)



Grandfather
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Re: OSAS vs Losing Salvation

Post by Grandfather » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:27 pm

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:29 am
Grandfather wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:02 pm
Time has to have a beginning. If there were an infinite number of days prior to today then today would never have arrived.
That is an interesting hypothesis. However, to me this sounds like a denial of the very concept of eternity: time without beginning or end.
If time had no begin, no starting point, if there were an infinite number of days prior to this one, then today would never have arrived. However, that does not mean that time cannot extend an infinite number of days into the future, or eternity.

Everything has a beginning, except God. Time belongs to the created order, as distinct from the divine essence of God. It has been said that God knows all events in a single cohesive act of consciousness, in contrast to the forms of finite that man posssesses.



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Re: OSAS vs Losing Salvation

Post by Spiritblade Disciple » Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:28 pm

My thought is that time must somehow emanate from God in a manner similar to how light radiates from the sun. So long as God has existed, time must exist. And, since God has always existed, time has always existed. A lack of existence of time would indicate a lack of existence of God. And, if time did not exist, God would not exist, either.


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luchnia
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Re: OSAS vs Losing Salvation

Post by luchnia » Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:04 am

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:28 pm
My thought is that time must somehow emanate from God in a manner similar to how light radiates from the sun. So long as God has existed, time must exist. And, since God has always existed, time has always existed. A lack of existence of time would indicate a lack of existence of God. And, if time did not exist, God would not exist, either.
What if time was for various species and realms that is limited in mind like man? For God's created things. Man needs time right? Animals need time. Other things utilize time. Does God need time? Do spirits of men need time? If our minds were completely opened what would the relevance of time give us and would we need it?

What is eternal? The spirit of man, correct? Does eternity have an end point? Is eternity fully present in the now? This brings me back to the question does God age? Was God ever young? Will God get old? BTW, I am using the term God as being the Father.

God is spirit - does Spirit age? From our understanding the term "age" in this sense means there is an end to aging because we die, yet maybe our perception of this is completely off base and we should be focusing on that which is in the eternal loop. That which does not die - forever without end, eternal.


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