Dake Bible Discussion BoardChange My Mind: Some Babies Go to Hell When They Die

General Discussion Forum devoted to the study of God's Word in Honor of Finis J. Dake.
Post Reply
User avatar
bibleman
Administrator
Posts: 2937
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 1998 5:23 pm
Location: South Carolina
Contact:

Re: Change My Mind: Some Babies Go to Hell When They Die

Post by bibleman » Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:09 pm

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:50 pm
bibleman wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:47 pm
1) I think that children under the age of accountability do NOT go to Hell.
Children under the age of accountability are saved (Mt. 18:1-10; 19:14). Exact accountable age is not known.
Finis Jennings Dake, Dake's Annotated Reference Bible: Containing the Old and New Testaments of the Authorized or King James Version Text, (Lawrenceville, GA: Dake Bible Sales, Inc., 1997), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, Under: "Chapter 19".
This would prove my position wrong if the children spoken of were not of righteous families who were bringing their children to Jesus. Children need to be brought to Jesus.
Let's approach this from another direction...

Say you make a rule that "everybody that comes to your restaurant MUST walk through the front door to come in."

OK fine...

One day however someone comes through the front door... but they were just in a car accident and they were in a wheel chair when they came in. They did NOT walk through the front door, but rolled through in a wheel chair.

Since they are not capable of walking.... Do you still let them come into your restaurant?


God bless
Leon Bible

http://www.ministryhelps.com
http://www.dakebible.com
http://www.dakebibleboard.com
https://www.facebook.com/groups/DakeBibleDiscussion/

The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

User avatar
Spiritblade Disciple
Little Children, Let No Man Deceive You: He that Doeth Righteousness is Righteous, Even as He is Righteous
Posts: 4870
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2004 6:27 pm

Re: Change My Mind: Some Babies Go to Hell When They Die

Post by Spiritblade Disciple » Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:22 pm

bibleman wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:09 pm
Let's approach this from another direction...

Say you make a rule that "everybody that comes to your restaurant MUST walk through the front door to come in."

OK fine...

One day however someone comes through the front door... but they were just in a car accident and they were in a wheel chair when they came in. They did NOT walk through the front door, but rolled through in a wheel chair.

Since they are not capable of walking.... Do you still let them come into your restaurant?
I wouldn't make such a rule.

But, for the sake of exploring your logic, let's suppose that a restaurant owner did make that rule and that they did not permit the person in the wheelchair to enter the restaurant.

And, for the sake of exploring your logic, let's suppose that another restaurant owner did make that rule, but despite that rule, they did permit the person in the wheelchair to enter the restaurant.

Either way, the owner of the restaurant is right. It's his or her restaurant. In one case, the owner follows his or her own law. In the other case, the owner reveals that he or she can make exceptions to the rule based on the fact that he owns the restaurant. The owner may or may not permit exceptions to the rule according to his wishes.


Job 14:4 King James Version
Who can bring a CLEAN thing out of an UNCLEAN? Not one.

User avatar
bibleman
Administrator
Posts: 2937
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 1998 5:23 pm
Location: South Carolina
Contact:

Re: Change My Mind: Some Babies Go to Hell When They Die

Post by bibleman » Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:31 pm

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:38 pm
bibleman wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:47 pm
branham1965 wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:51 pm
Innocent ones children and babies killed at any time in history will be revived from death in JEHOVAH'S Messianic Kingdom.Isaiah 35.

The thought that ones never given a chance would be eternally punished in hellfire is from

the proponents father Lucifer Satan the Devil.
OK here goes...
Do you understand Isaiah 35 to be saying anything about "innocent ones children and babies killed at any time in history" being "revived from death in JEHOVAH's Messianic Kingdom"?
No Roger, it is talking about the Millennium and the restoration of the Earth, but I don't see babies being killed or even mentioned at all.


God bless
Leon Bible

http://www.ministryhelps.com
http://www.dakebible.com
http://www.dakebibleboard.com
https://www.facebook.com/groups/DakeBibleDiscussion/

The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

User avatar
Spiritblade Disciple
Little Children, Let No Man Deceive You: He that Doeth Righteousness is Righteous, Even as He is Righteous
Posts: 4870
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2004 6:27 pm

Re: Change My Mind: Some Babies Go to Hell When They Die

Post by Spiritblade Disciple » Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:36 pm

bibleman wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:31 pm
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:38 pm
bibleman wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:47 pm
branham1965 wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:51 pm
Innocent ones children and babies killed at any time in history will be revived from death in JEHOVAH'S Messianic Kingdom.Isaiah 35.

The thought that ones never given a chance would be eternally punished in hellfire is from

the proponents father Lucifer Satan the Devil.
OK here goes...
Do you understand Isaiah 35 to be saying anything about "innocent ones children and babies killed at any time in history" being "revived from death in JEHOVAH's Messianic Kingdom"?
No Roger, it is talking about the Millennium and the restoration of the Earth, but I don't see babies being killed or even mentioned at all.
That's what I thought. I read the chapter about 3 times and didn't see anything.

Maybe, Billy meant to list a different reference?


Job 14:4 King James Version
Who can bring a CLEAN thing out of an UNCLEAN? Not one.

User avatar
bibleman
Administrator
Posts: 2937
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 1998 5:23 pm
Location: South Carolina
Contact:

Re: Change My Mind: Some Babies Go to Hell When They Die

Post by bibleman » Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:40 pm

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:22 pm
bibleman wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:09 pm
Let's approach this from another direction...

Say you make a rule that "everybody that comes to your restaurant MUST walk through the front door to come in."

OK fine...

One day however someone comes through the front door... but they were just in a car accident and they were in a wheel chair when they came in. They did NOT walk through the front door, but rolled through in a wheel chair.

Since they are not capable of walking.... Do you still let them come into your restaurant?
I wouldn't make such a rule.

But, for the sake of exploring your logic, let's suppose that a restaurant owner did make that rule and that they did not permit the person in the wheelchair to enter the restaurant.

And, for the sake of exploring your logic, let's suppose that another restaurant owner did make that rule, but despite that rule, they did permit the person in the wheelchair to enter the restaurant.

Either way, the owner of the restaurant is right. It's his or her restaurant. In one case, the owner follows his or her own law. In the other case, the owner reveals that he or she can make exceptions to the rule based on the fact that he owns the restaurant. The owner may or may not permit exceptions to the rule according to his wishes.
The question then becomes is the heart of a restaurant owner "just" ...in the refusal to grant a wheel chair bound person entrance into his restaurant?

I would answer NO. The person in the wheel chair is incapable of waling so to require a person to do what a person cannot do is not just.

So I appeal to the logic and reason of Abraham: "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" Gen 18:25

Is it right to send children... who are incapable of understanding righteousness and sin and the reward and punishment for both... to Hell. I think not and would not expect the Lord of all the earth to do that.

The same would hold true for the mentally retarded who are incapable of making logical, reasonable and rational thought.


God bless
Leon Bible

http://www.ministryhelps.com
http://www.dakebible.com
http://www.dakebibleboard.com
https://www.facebook.com/groups/DakeBibleDiscussion/

The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

Hill Top
Go Ye and Teach All Nations, Baptizing Them in the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost
Posts: 828
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:29 pm

Re: Change My Mind: Some Babies Go to Hell When They Die

Post by Hill Top » Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:55 pm

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:47 pm
Unclean parents.
Are you equating "unclean" with "sinful"?
Isn't it true that no man will be judged for the sins of another?



Hill Top
Go Ye and Teach All Nations, Baptizing Them in the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost
Posts: 828
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:29 pm

Re: Change My Mind: Some Babies Go to Hell When They Die

Post by Hill Top » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:09 am

bibleman wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:09 pm
Let's approach this from another direction...

Say you make a rule that "everybody that comes to your restaurant MUST walk through the front door to come in."
OK fine...
One day however someone comes through the front door... but they were just in a car accident and they were in a wheel chair when they came in. They did NOT walk through the front door, but rolled through in a wheel chair.

Since they are not capable of walking.... Do you still let them come into your restaurant?
Would this restaurant refuse service to a baby that was carried in?
My answer to both of our questions is..."NO", they would not refuse to service them.

Why did Jesus die for "us"?
Wasn't it to pay for "our" sins?
What if we had no sins to pay for?
Wouldn't we be counted worthy of eternal life?
I mean, having never been separated from God by sins, aren't the names of the pure written in the book of life?



User avatar
luchnia
He Which Soweth Sparingly Shall Reap also Sparingly
Posts: 1463
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2014 6:01 am

Re: Change My Mind: Some Babies Go to Hell When They Die

Post by luchnia » Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:03 am

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:50 pm
luchnia wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:09 am
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:45 pm
luchnia wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:15 am
We talk about babies, but what about a young child? How old does one need to be in order to be accountable - 2, 4, 6, 8? Remember there was a king that was 7 years old. I don't remember the scripture at the moment, but an amazing story of what happened.
Well... A thought comes to mind... The reason that a group of foot soldiers is called an infantry is because that used to be the job of the children during war.

That said, if there is an age of accountability, and I think that there is for clean children, it probably isn't very old. Folks used to be considered adults a lot younger than they are, today.
Having raised some kids, there is definitely a difference in age based on the individual when they become accountable. At least in my opinion it is. I may not understand it exactly, yet it seems there is a place in a person's spirit that comes to a knowledge deep inside and even thinking back on my childhood, I think I remember a time that I knew I was accountable to something higher than me. For me, though I was much older. When i was young, I had no clue up from down much less accountability to anything.

Children must have been different in days of old, because today I cannot imagine a kid having enough sense to do anything at 7 years old, much less ruling a kingdom. Some of these kids today are dumber than rocks, but then look how they are trained up. They are not taught anything but to be a couch sponge.

Thinking about infantry, here is a situation to consider that happens all the time. Say a militia group takes a very young child and feeds them and trains them to fight for an evil cause and this child becomes a killer because of their training. What happens to that child when it is killed as it has been brainwashed into a killing machine? They merely do what their teachers taught them and don't know right from wrong.

There are cases of extremely young children as young as 4 or 5 years old being taught to give soldiers small lunch bags and then the bag will explode and kill the soldier when he opens it. Is this a case of woe to the one by which the sin came?
No murderer has eternal life (1st John 3:1).
Consider there is a difference between one who kills by order verses one who murders. Sometimes in scripture the words are challenging to understand, yet you can figure it out. Solders kill and had different commands given them, but a murdered is a different animal.

A murderer is not approved as righteous, yet the act of killing as we see from God is righteous. This is another misunderstood area of scripture and probably needs its own thread for discussion. Also it greatly helps in understanding God's justice in this light.


Word up!

User avatar
luchnia
He Which Soweth Sparingly Shall Reap also Sparingly
Posts: 1463
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2014 6:01 am

Re: Change My Mind: Some Babies Go to Hell When They Die

Post by luchnia » Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:06 am

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:51 pm
luchnia wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:22 am
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:15 pm
We have to remember that we are talking about the same God who rejoices over destroying the disobedient and that such destruction includes having fathers and mothers eat their own babies, without even sharing them with other hungry members of their families (see Deuteronomy 28:63 & 28:53-57). Children can very much be the subjects of God's wrath as all the nations added together are worth less than nothing in His sight (Isaiah 40:17).
This was similar to what I was referring to in another post. We are to rejoice as well and that seems difficult at times. There are men that have done such evil acts today and we should rejoice when they are gone from the earth, yet that can seem an odd thing. I am reminded of the "woes" that Jesus pronounced.
If you cannot praise God for sending sinners to Hell, you probably do not love righteousness enough, nor hate iniquity enough.
I agree and this is an area that I need more growth in. There were two evil rulers killed some years ago and this was a time that I rejoiced, yet I was still somewhat reserved on the matter. One thing is for sure, there is always more to learn about God's love.


Word up!

User avatar
luchnia
He Which Soweth Sparingly Shall Reap also Sparingly
Posts: 1463
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2014 6:01 am

Re: Change My Mind: Some Babies Go to Hell When They Die

Post by luchnia » Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:24 am

Hill Top wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:09 am
Wasn't it to pay for "our" sins?
What if we had no sins to pay for?
Wouldn't we be counted worthy of eternal life?
This is a commonly held belief by many. Some deem what Jesus did, all that was necessary for those that have not yet attained a state of accountability that have neither done right or wrong as in the case of an infant that dies before even the age of learning to walk, speak, etc.

This is kind of like saying if a man has not faith to be healed, Jesus faith is all that is needed to heal through someone else's word. This has some merit in some cases. Look at the case of the one who was not healed by their faith but the word spoken through Jesus and believed by another person. Speak the word only and it will be done. If you command it, it is done.

Could it be that the innocent young, their salvation, that they are innocent up to accountability, and that is entirely based on Jesus' faith and work alone, "their angels behold the face of our Father"? In this context I am not referring to any of the children of the giant races that have no resurrection. There is probably much more to it, yet just throwing out some additional discussion points.


Word up!

Post Reply