Mate, as tempted as I am I wont say; "and a monkey sitting on it as well," co's your my mate!macca wrote:yep. our old T20 had a wheat bag for padding on the seat with a monkey wrench under it... i had callouses on my but-tocks, as forest would say.. Ha
Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Angels - Will they Fall Again?
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Ironman
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Re: Angels - Will they Fall Again?
Galatians 4: 16, Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
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Jay
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Re: Angels - Will they Fall Again?
No, from the Bible, we don't know how many angels originally fell. The Book of Enoch gives a number but it has been so long since I read it that I can't remember. It actually names many of the angels. The Book of Enoch is not considered canonical and there was something in it that I didn't feel like lined up with the Word. I wish I could remember what it was. But, it is a very interesting read and is referenced in the book of Jude. For anyone wanting to study more about this, I would recommend reading the Book of Enoch.dolph wrote:Jay, I think you may have a valid point about the one third of the angels rebelling being in the future. I had always thought Rev.12:4 was a reference back to Ez. 28 or Isa. 14, but not so. Dake appears silent on this.
Couldn't one go a step further on this and question if the "third part of the stars" couldn't be taken literally? Just prior to this, as part of the 7th trumpet, in Rev. 8:12, "a third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon and the third part of the stars so that a third part of them was darkened and the day shone not for a third part of it and the night likewise." Do we really know how many angels rebelled with Lucifer before Adam's time??
We know that there were giants before Noah's flood and after Noah's flood. The only thing we don't know is if the giants after the flood were a result of the same angels that sinned before the flood or if more angels fell after the flood. The only way Giants were created were between a sexual union between angels and women. Peter tells us that some of the fallen angels were put in Tartarus, the lowest compartment of hell where even men don't go. We also see fallen angels in other places throughout Revelation. The Book of Enoch says those angels were only held in Tartarus for a certain length of time when Peter said they are held in chains until the day of judgment. There is a lot, about this situation, that the Bible is silent on.
Hebrews 10:35-36
Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
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Jay
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Re: Angels - Will they Fall Again?
With all due respect, I still have to take all of this as a future event. We know that Lucifer was cast out, into Earth but we also know that he, as Satan, is able to still go into Heaven:Ironman wrote:
Scripture tells us that it was definately one third of God's angels that fell during the rebellion past, and this fact is only being reinforced that it was indeed one third that fell with Lucifer in Rev. 12:4. No Scripture that I can find teaches that any more fall in the future. One third fell in the past and were cast down to the earth, and this same one third will fight with lucifer against Christ in the future.
Rev. 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
This verse (4), is purely symbolic of the third of God's angels that rebelled with Lucifer (past), and is to show how many fallen angels are still and will be with him in the future war in Heaven under the 7th trumpet (V 4, 7-12).
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. 7 And the Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?” So Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.”
We also know that Satan and his cohorts are able to operate in the skies, or the first heaven:
Ephesians 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
The scriptures in Revelation 12 speak of a future time, after the rapture of the church. Once and for all Satan and his angels will be completely cast into the earth and not allowed to go into Heaven anymore.
Revelation 12:6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days. 7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought,
Read Dake's notes on the word, "and" in his studies on Genesis 1:1,2. This is speaking of the time that Israel will flee to the wilderness, which is after the rapture. I believe this just shows how terrible things are going to be on the earth when Satan is finally completely cast into the earth, knowing that he has but a short time to accomplish all of his evil works on earth.
To take Revelation 12:4 and apply it to something that happened in eternity past when it is clearly something that is going to happen during the 7 years of trials and tribulation is error, in my opinion. One thing for sure though, we'll know when we get to Heaven.
JayMc
Hebrews 10:35-36
Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
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Ironman
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Re: Angels - Will they Fall Again?
Hi JayMC
You sure are entitled to have your understanding on this question. But regarding the question how many angles fell and will they fall agai, Scripture clearly and plainly teaches that it was definately one third of God's angels that fell during the rebellion past, and this fact is only being reinforced that it was indeed one third that fell with Lucifer in Rev. 12:4. No Scripture that I can find teaches that any more fall in the future. One third fell in the past and were cast down to the earth, and this same one third will fight with lucifer against Christ in the future.
Rev. 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Here's Dakes notes on Rev. 12 verse 4. Dake Bible Book ofRrevelation page 294, note (G). This verse (4). Symbolic of the third of God's angels that rebelled with Lucifer (past), and is to show how many fallen angels are still and will be with him in the future war in Heaven under the 7th trumpet (V 4, 7-12).
I see this and believe it as Dake understood it. If its as you say then we will eventually find out one way or another for sure.
This happened when Lucifer and one third of Gods angels invaded Heaven during the pree Adamite days.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Also, in verse 11, the blood of the Lamb was shed in the past as well, its not going to be shed again in the future?
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
You sure are entitled to have your understanding on this question. But regarding the question how many angles fell and will they fall agai, Scripture clearly and plainly teaches that it was definately one third of God's angels that fell during the rebellion past, and this fact is only being reinforced that it was indeed one third that fell with Lucifer in Rev. 12:4. No Scripture that I can find teaches that any more fall in the future. One third fell in the past and were cast down to the earth, and this same one third will fight with lucifer against Christ in the future.
Rev. 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Here's Dakes notes on Rev. 12 verse 4. Dake Bible Book ofRrevelation page 294, note (G). This verse (4). Symbolic of the third of God's angels that rebelled with Lucifer (past), and is to show how many fallen angels are still and will be with him in the future war in Heaven under the 7th trumpet (V 4, 7-12).
I see this and believe it as Dake understood it. If its as you say then we will eventually find out one way or another for sure.
This happened when Lucifer and one third of Gods angels invaded Heaven during the pree Adamite days.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Also, in verse 11, the blood of the Lamb was shed in the past as well, its not going to be shed again in the future?
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Galatians 4: 16, Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
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Jay
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Re: Angels - Will they Fall Again?
No, Ironman, the blood of Christ was only shed once, once and for all. But, I am still overcoming Satan with that blood and the word of my testimony as is the church.
The only way we can believe that a third of the angels fell with Satan at the beginning is to take parts of Revelation 12 as past and parts as future. I believe this is wrong and obviously we disagree about that. If we look at Rev 12 we see:
12:1 The sun clothed woman is Israel, according to Dake's notes. Israel did not exist when Satan was cast out of Heaven so this must be speaking of Israel in the future. FUTURE
12:3 We have a "great red dragon" with seven heads and ten horns and seven diadems or crowns on his heads. Dake believes the dragon is Satan and these are kingdoms prior to the Antichrist's reign. So this is way after Satan fell. FUTURE
12:4 The dragon's tail drew 1/3 of the stars of Heaven and cast them into the earth. You believe this was a past event. I believe it is a FUTURE event. Look at the rest of verse 4. In the very same verse, after Satan cast out 1/3 of the angels, he stands before the woman (Israel) who is ready to deliver the man-child so that he may devour the man-child, definitely a FUTURE event. To throw the first part of this verse back to the past and the rest to the future is very confusing and wrong in my opinion. The man-child, according to Dake, are the 144,000 who appear after the rapture. Definitely FUTURE
The woman and the man-child flee to the wilderness for 1,260 days. FUTURE
12:7 Michael and his angels fight against the dragon and his angels. If we believe Dake, this is FUTURE. Dake's notes, "a [war in heaven] This war in heaven will be the last actual struggle between Satan and God over the possession of the heavenlies where Satan reigns (Ephes. 2:2; Ephes. 6:12). Satan still has access to God's heaven to accuse the brethren, but from the time of this casting out he will never again enter heaven (Job 1:6; Job 2:1; Rev. 12:7-12; Zech. 3:1)."
As we continue through the rest of Rev 12, it is ALL FUTURE! To say that half of one verse is past is error.
We absolutely know that a number of angels fell in times of old with Satan when he was cast out of Heaven. We also know without a shadow of a doubt that those angels had sexual relationships with women and giants were the outcome. Those giants were evil and could not be saved. Peter also told us that the fallen angels, the ones that left their first estate, the ones that originally fell with Satan, are held in chains until the day of judgment. If this is so, how will they fight with "the dragon" against Michael and his angels? This is another absolute proof that more angels will fall in the future, after the rapture and Rev 12 tells us it will be "a third part". We also know that Satan still has access to Heaven to go before God as the "accuser of the brethren". Nowhere in the Bible does it ever say that 1/3 of the angels fell with Satan when he was first cast out of Heaven. We do, though, know that 1/3 of the angels in Heaven will be cast out when Satan is finally, completely, cast out of Heaven, when he knows his days are short to finish his evil work on earth. Thank God, the church will not be here during this time having been taken to Heaven in the rapture.
Ironman, I will give you the last word. I've put this out there and ask all of you to prayerfully consider it, throw out man's tradition, pray about it and see what the Holy Spirit shows you but it is not worth getting into vain arguments over but a very interesting topic nonetheless.
JayMc
The only way we can believe that a third of the angels fell with Satan at the beginning is to take parts of Revelation 12 as past and parts as future. I believe this is wrong and obviously we disagree about that. If we look at Rev 12 we see:
12:1 The sun clothed woman is Israel, according to Dake's notes. Israel did not exist when Satan was cast out of Heaven so this must be speaking of Israel in the future. FUTURE
12:3 We have a "great red dragon" with seven heads and ten horns and seven diadems or crowns on his heads. Dake believes the dragon is Satan and these are kingdoms prior to the Antichrist's reign. So this is way after Satan fell. FUTURE
12:4 The dragon's tail drew 1/3 of the stars of Heaven and cast them into the earth. You believe this was a past event. I believe it is a FUTURE event. Look at the rest of verse 4. In the very same verse, after Satan cast out 1/3 of the angels, he stands before the woman (Israel) who is ready to deliver the man-child so that he may devour the man-child, definitely a FUTURE event. To throw the first part of this verse back to the past and the rest to the future is very confusing and wrong in my opinion. The man-child, according to Dake, are the 144,000 who appear after the rapture. Definitely FUTURE
The woman and the man-child flee to the wilderness for 1,260 days. FUTURE
12:7 Michael and his angels fight against the dragon and his angels. If we believe Dake, this is FUTURE. Dake's notes, "a [war in heaven] This war in heaven will be the last actual struggle between Satan and God over the possession of the heavenlies where Satan reigns (Ephes. 2:2; Ephes. 6:12). Satan still has access to God's heaven to accuse the brethren, but from the time of this casting out he will never again enter heaven (Job 1:6; Job 2:1; Rev. 12:7-12; Zech. 3:1)."
As we continue through the rest of Rev 12, it is ALL FUTURE! To say that half of one verse is past is error.
We absolutely know that a number of angels fell in times of old with Satan when he was cast out of Heaven. We also know without a shadow of a doubt that those angels had sexual relationships with women and giants were the outcome. Those giants were evil and could not be saved. Peter also told us that the fallen angels, the ones that left their first estate, the ones that originally fell with Satan, are held in chains until the day of judgment. If this is so, how will they fight with "the dragon" against Michael and his angels? This is another absolute proof that more angels will fall in the future, after the rapture and Rev 12 tells us it will be "a third part". We also know that Satan still has access to Heaven to go before God as the "accuser of the brethren". Nowhere in the Bible does it ever say that 1/3 of the angels fell with Satan when he was first cast out of Heaven. We do, though, know that 1/3 of the angels in Heaven will be cast out when Satan is finally, completely, cast out of Heaven, when he knows his days are short to finish his evil work on earth. Thank God, the church will not be here during this time having been taken to Heaven in the rapture.
Ironman, I will give you the last word. I've put this out there and ask all of you to prayerfully consider it, throw out man's tradition, pray about it and see what the Holy Spirit shows you but it is not worth getting into vain arguments over but a very interesting topic nonetheless.
JayMc
Hebrews 10:35-36
Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
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branham1965
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Re: Angels - Will they Fall Again?
i know what you mean big macca.id have loved to see you and Haz operated that equipment.macca wrote:My lovely wife tells me i am like that sometimes Billy... even the birds won't sing to me when i am grumpy.. duhhh
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Jay
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Re: Angels - Will they Fall Again?
Dolph, sometimes scripture is opened to us at certain times. Could it be that God has hidden this until now? I don't know but I firmly believe it, as it is written, that 1/3 of the angels WILL fall in the future. It won't matter to the church because we will be gone but it is going to be horrible to be on this earth. I probably believe 99% of Dake's teachings. Maybe this is just something that he never caught and again, maybe it is something the Lord has hidden until now. I don't know. Bro. Hagin was a "stickler" for the Word and i am too. It has gotten me into trouble at our Baptist church on occasion when I step on their traditional religious toes but I try to teach the Word in love and with wisdom, trying not to feed them too much meat at any one time. LOL.dolph wrote:Jaymc, you Rhema students are sharp. I agree with you 100%. My first pastor was a Rhema graduate going back to the eighties, Patrick Bowen. I was saved at a Copeland-Hagen convention at the Anaheim Convention Center in 1978. Is it possible the honorable Doctor Dake wasn't perfect?? Seriously, he is my hero.
Hebrews 10:35-36
Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
-
Ironman
- Fast the Chosen Fast of God... Then Shalt Thou Be Like a Spring of Water, Whose Waters Fail Not
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Re: Angels - Will they Fall Again?
No worries Jay. Mate, I dont want the last word, I'm not like that at all.
"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,"(Rev. 12:7).
This war in Heaven will be the last actual struggle between Satan and God over the posession of the heavenlies where Satan reignes (Eph. 2:2; 6:12). Satan still has acces to God's heaven to accuse the bretheren, but from the time of this casting out he will never again enter heaven (Job. 1:6; 2:1; Rev. 12:7-12; Zech. 3:6).
The Bible teaches that one third of the angels proved untrue as did all the subjects of the first social order on the Earth over whom Lucifer ruled before the days of Adam. Just how many rulers and subjects of other planets rebelled is not definately stated, but we do learn from Scripture that there are thrones and kingdoms in the heavens as well as on the earth, visible and invisible (Col. 1:15-18); that God charged some of His angels with folly (Job 4:18), that over one third of God's angels rebelled with Lucifer (Rev. 12:3-12; Matt. 25:41). How long Lucifer ruled the Earth in perfect harmony with the kingdom of God is not known, but it was for a long period fro it took a long time to work up such a rebellion as he did.
"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,"(Rev. 12:7).
This war in Heaven will be the last actual struggle between Satan and God over the posession of the heavenlies where Satan reignes (Eph. 2:2; 6:12). Satan still has acces to God's heaven to accuse the bretheren, but from the time of this casting out he will never again enter heaven (Job. 1:6; 2:1; Rev. 12:7-12; Zech. 3:6).
." Nowhere in the Bible does it ever say that 1/3 of the angels fell with Satan when he was first cast out of Heaven."
The Bible teaches that one third of the angels proved untrue as did all the subjects of the first social order on the Earth over whom Lucifer ruled before the days of Adam. Just how many rulers and subjects of other planets rebelled is not definately stated, but we do learn from Scripture that there are thrones and kingdoms in the heavens as well as on the earth, visible and invisible (Col. 1:15-18); that God charged some of His angels with folly (Job 4:18), that over one third of God's angels rebelled with Lucifer (Rev. 12:3-12; Matt. 25:41). How long Lucifer ruled the Earth in perfect harmony with the kingdom of God is not known, but it was for a long period fro it took a long time to work up such a rebellion as he did.
Galatians 4: 16, Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
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Ray
Re: Angels - Will they Fall Again?
Hello Jay,
Earlier you wrote "12:1 The sun clothed woman is Israel, according to Dake's notes. Israel did not exist when Satan was cast out of Heaven so this must be speaking of Israel in the future. FUTURE
12:3 We have a "great red dragon" with seven heads and ten horns and seven diadems or crowns on his heads. Dake believes the dragon is Satan and these are kingdoms prior to the Antichrist's reign. So this is way after Satan fell. FUTURE
12:4 The dragon's tail drew 1/3 of the stars of Heaven and cast them into the earth. You believe this was a past event. I believe it is a FUTURE event. Look at the rest of verse 4. In the very same verse, after Satan cast out 1/3 of the angels, he stands before the woman (Israel) who is ready to deliver the man-child so that he may devour the man-child, definitely a FUTURE event. To throw the first part of this verse back to the past and the rest to the future is very confusing and wrong in my opinion. The man-child, according to Dake, are the 144,000 who appear after the rapture. Definitely FUTURE
The woman and the man-child flee to the wilderness for 1,260 days. FUTURE
12:7 Michael and his angels fight against the dragon and his angels. If we believe Dake, this is FUTURE. Dake's notes, "a [war in heaven] This war in heaven will be the last actual struggle between Satan and God over the possession of the heavenlies where Satan reigns (Ephes. 2:2; Ephes. 6:12). Satan still has access to God's heaven to accuse the brethren, but from the time of this casting out he will never again enter heaven (Job 1:6; Job 2:1; Rev. 12:7-12; Zech. 3:1)."
Jay, is Finis Dake your final authority on Scripture ?
Earlier you wrote "12:1 The sun clothed woman is Israel, according to Dake's notes. Israel did not exist when Satan was cast out of Heaven so this must be speaking of Israel in the future. FUTURE
12:3 We have a "great red dragon" with seven heads and ten horns and seven diadems or crowns on his heads. Dake believes the dragon is Satan and these are kingdoms prior to the Antichrist's reign. So this is way after Satan fell. FUTURE
12:4 The dragon's tail drew 1/3 of the stars of Heaven and cast them into the earth. You believe this was a past event. I believe it is a FUTURE event. Look at the rest of verse 4. In the very same verse, after Satan cast out 1/3 of the angels, he stands before the woman (Israel) who is ready to deliver the man-child so that he may devour the man-child, definitely a FUTURE event. To throw the first part of this verse back to the past and the rest to the future is very confusing and wrong in my opinion. The man-child, according to Dake, are the 144,000 who appear after the rapture. Definitely FUTURE
The woman and the man-child flee to the wilderness for 1,260 days. FUTURE
12:7 Michael and his angels fight against the dragon and his angels. If we believe Dake, this is FUTURE. Dake's notes, "a [war in heaven] This war in heaven will be the last actual struggle between Satan and God over the possession of the heavenlies where Satan reigns (Ephes. 2:2; Ephes. 6:12). Satan still has access to God's heaven to accuse the brethren, but from the time of this casting out he will never again enter heaven (Job 1:6; Job 2:1; Rev. 12:7-12; Zech. 3:1)."
Jay, is Finis Dake your final authority on Scripture ?