Dake Bible Discussion BoardWHAT'S WRONG WITH BEING PERFECT?

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Grandfather
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Re: WHAT'S WRONG WITH BEING PERFECT?

Post by Grandfather »

Hill Top wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:10 pm
Grandfather wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:20 am
Who determines the motive?
Everyone, if it impacts them.
I'm trying to follow you here. So, if an action does not directly impact someone they have no standing to judge motive to determine if it was a simple mistake or a sin? Is this what you are stating?
Hill Top wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:10 pm
Grandfather wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:20 am
Using the above example, the person doing the research could say their motive was pure and honorable. There motive was to show that people had been following a myth and there was no sound reason for doing so.
But what would be the point of lying?

Again, I'm trying to understand you. I understand the severity in the difference of intentionally misleading people and accidently misleading people. I understand that someone may intentionally mislead people (ie LIE) for a mirade of reasons. I believe everyone would call that degree of misleading a sin. (Does anyone dispute this?)

However, I know that people can be as equally mislead by someone that has, in their mind, a pure and honorable intention. The damage to those that follow that information is no less hurtful, no less painful. The consciquences are no less real than those that were lead astry by the intentional lies. (Does anyone dispute this?)

Why does the person in the second situation get away will calling the action a mistake? Why is telling a falsehood one believes to be true less sinful than telling a falsehood known to false. Both are telling falsehoods, ie LIES.
Hill Top wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:10 pm
Grandfather wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:20 am
Is that simply a mistake or is it sinful?
If you send me 5 dollars I will answer.
THAT would be a sinful motive.
Why would asking for money be a sinful motive? I can quickly think of several a reason it might be justified. Perhaps you would incur some expense in providing the answer. Why should you bear that cost?
Hill Top wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:10 pm
I used the information at hand and made an erroneous determination.
Why would you infer a sinful motive if I have nothing to gain from it?
Why does a person have to gain something in order for an action to be sinful?



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luchnia
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Re: WHAT'S WRONG WITH BEING PERFECT?

Post by luchnia »

Grandfather wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:26 am
Again, I'm trying to understand you. I understand the severity in the difference of intentionally misleading people and accidently misleading people. I understand that someone may intentionally mislead people (ie LIE) for a mirade of reasons. I believe everyone would call that degree of misleading a sin. (Does anyone dispute this?)

However, I know that people can be as equally mislead by someone that has, in their mind, a pure and honorable intention. The damage to those that follow that information is no less hurtful, no less painful. The consciquences are no less real than those that were lead astry by the intentional lies. (Does anyone dispute this?)

Why does the person in the second situation get away will calling the action a mistake? Why is telling a falsehood one believes to be true less sinful than telling a falsehood known to false. Both are telling falsehoods, ie LIES.
We have touched on this before and it may be that it all depends on the various circumstances. For example, here are two scenarios, one with intent and one without, yet both equal the same outcome.

Scenario one - a homeowner sets up an obstacle on their front porch in attempt to do harm to a person they do not like that they know is on their way over. The person arrives, the obstacle is triggered, and the obstacle causes them to fall which ends in death.

Scenario two - the person that is not liked by the homeowner comes over and the homeowner goes out on the porch to meet them. The homeowner knows the porch is slick and makes a mistake by not watching his steps, slips, and accidentally falls into the person. The person hits their head against a metal railing and the result is death.

Scenario one has intent. Even though the individual is not liked that died, scenario two does not have evil intent. Both scenarios have the same outcome.

In my opinion sin works much the same way from what I understand from scripture. There are times though when my understanding may be clouded about certain scriptural events. Yet, from what I believe Jesus taught it is clear that sin is from an evil heart to do unrighteousness.


Word up!

Grandfather
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Re: WHAT'S WRONG WITH BEING PERFECT?

Post by Grandfather »

luchnia wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:17 am
Grandfather wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:26 am
Again, I'm trying to understand you. I understand the severity in the difference of intentionally misleading people and accidently misleading people. I understand that someone may intentionally mislead people (ie LIE) for a mirade of reasons. I believe everyone would call that degree of misleading a sin. (Does anyone dispute this?)

However, I know that people can be as equally mislead by someone that has, in their mind, a pure and honorable intention. The damage to those that follow that information is no less hurtful, no less painful. The consciquences are no less real than those that were lead astry by the intentional lies. (Does anyone dispute this?)

Why does the person in the second situation get away will calling the action a mistake? Why is telling a falsehood one believes to be true less sinful than telling a falsehood known to false. Both are telling falsehoods, ie LIES.
We have touched on this before and it may be that it all depends on the various circumstances. For example, here are two scenarios, one with intent and one without, yet both equal the same outcome.

Scenario one - a homeowner sets up an obstacle on their front porch in attempt to do harm to a person they do not like that they know is on their way over. The person arrives, the obstacle is triggered, and the obstacle causes them to fall which ends in death.

Scenario two - the person that is not liked by the homeowner comes over and the homeowner goes out on the porch to meet them. The homeowner knows the porch is slick and makes a mistake by not watching his steps, slips, and accidentally falls into the person. The person hits their head against a metal railing and the result is death.

Scenario one has intent. Even though the individual is not liked that died, scenario two does not have evil intent. Both scenarios have the same outcome.

In my opinion sin works much the same way from what I understand from scripture. There are times though when my understanding may be clouded about certain scriptural events. Yet, from what I believe Jesus taught it is clear that sin is from an evil heart to do unrighteousness.
I understand the attempt to “justify” the actions of one and condemn the actions of another. Yet, I believe that God holds people to a higher standard than that of human reasoning. James 4:17 states that a person who knows to do good and does not do it, to them it is sin. In both of the situations mentioned above I fail to see an true desire to achieve the greatest good. Is it “good” to protect yourself? I believe a case can be made for that. At the same time I can see “setting a trap” as not being “good” - suppose someone else fell into that trap?

Sin, is missing the mark of high calling that God sets, not missing some man made standard. Therefor I believe both scenerios you presented are wrong, one is just “more wrong” than the other. And as typical man attempts to justify their sin by attempting to say someone else had a great sin.



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luchnia
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Re: WHAT'S WRONG WITH BEING PERFECT?

Post by luchnia »

Grandfather wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:47 am
luchnia wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:17 am
Grandfather wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:26 am
Again, I'm trying to understand you. I understand the severity in the difference of intentionally misleading people and accidently misleading people. I understand that someone may intentionally mislead people (ie LIE) for a mirade of reasons. I believe everyone would call that degree of misleading a sin. (Does anyone dispute this?)

However, I know that people can be as equally mislead by someone that has, in their mind, a pure and honorable intention. The damage to those that follow that information is no less hurtful, no less painful. The consciquences are no less real than those that were lead astry by the intentional lies. (Does anyone dispute this?)

Why does the person in the second situation get away will calling the action a mistake? Why is telling a falsehood one believes to be true less sinful than telling a falsehood known to false. Both are telling falsehoods, ie LIES.
We have touched on this before and it may be that it all depends on the various circumstances. For example, here are two scenarios, one with intent and one without, yet both equal the same outcome.

Scenario one - a homeowner sets up an obstacle on their front porch in attempt to do harm to a person they do not like that they know is on their way over. The person arrives, the obstacle is triggered, and the obstacle causes them to fall which ends in death.

Scenario two - the person that is not liked by the homeowner comes over and the homeowner goes out on the porch to meet them. The homeowner knows the porch is slick and makes a mistake by not watching his steps, slips, and accidentally falls into the person. The person hits their head against a metal railing and the result is death.

Scenario one has intent. Even though the individual is not liked that died, scenario two does not have evil intent. Both scenarios have the same outcome.

In my opinion sin works much the same way from what I understand from scripture. There are times though when my understanding may be clouded about certain scriptural events. Yet, from what I believe Jesus taught it is clear that sin is from an evil heart to do unrighteousness.
I understand the attempt to “justify” the actions of one and condemn the actions of another. Yet, I believe that God holds people to a higher standard than that of human reasoning. James 4:17 states that a person who knows to do good and does not do it, to them it is sin. In both of the situations mentioned above I fail to see an true desire to achieve the greatest good. Is it “good” to protect yourself? I believe a case can be made for that. At the same time I can see “setting a trap” as not being “good” - suppose someone else fell into that trap?

Sin, is missing the mark of high calling that God sets, not missing some man made standard. Therefor I believe both scenerios you presented are wrong, one is just “more wrong” than the other. And as typical man attempts to justify their sin by attempting to say someone else had a great sin.
I understand what you are stating, yet for me I don't see scenario two as sin by my understanding of sin or wrong for that matter. I have caused harm to people without intention and did not even know it caused a problem. I can recall a number of instances this has occurred. Had I had a way of knowing certain events would cause harm to another, I would have figured out something different.

I think there is a big difference in missing the moral mark versus a simple mistake we might make. I don't define a mistake as a wrong. In the majority of cases that I am aware of the human mind does not contain the foreknowledge necessary to avoid making all mistakes that will happen in our lives. I know my mind doesn't and seems a bit worse since I am much older now.


Word up!

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Spiritblade Disciple
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Re: WHAT'S WRONG WITH BEING PERFECT?

Post by Spiritblade Disciple »

Hill Top wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:42 pm
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:05 pm
bibleman wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:08 pm
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:00 pm
Isn't one definition of sin falling short of the glory of God?

Who does not fall short of God's glory?
Hilltop is the only person I know.
Remember that time when Hill Top compared his fear of a minor elective surgery to Jesus' Passion? Sure didn't fall short there, did he?

Image
Without your "quote" on that I will discount that "claim".
If memory serves me correctly, someone was again trying to infer sin because of my fear.
I pointed out that the sinless Christ also once "feared" something, to counter that accusation, so perhaps that is what you are remembering.

You don't think Jesus was a sinner because He feared, do you?
Looks like you don't really need me to quote you on it, since you've just done it again by asking whether or not Jesus sinned through fear.

Context matters.


Matthew 5:19-20 New King James Version
"Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."

Grandfather
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Re: WHAT'S WRONG WITH BEING PERFECT?

Post by Grandfather »

luchnia wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:19 pm
I think there is a big difference in missing the moral mark versus a simple mistake we might make. I don't define a mistake as a wrong. In the majority of cases that I am aware of the human mind does not contain the foreknowledge necessary to avoid making all mistakes that will happen in our lives. I know my mind doesn't and seems a bit worse since I am much older now.
I grasp the intention of the point you are making. The question I have is who, or what, is the objective standard by which missing the mark is a moral failure or a simple mistake? I might agree t hat the human mind does not contain the foreknowledge necessary to avoid making mistakes, but does that forgive making them? It may be a good excuse, but is it a good enough reason?

Let me come at this from another angle. Would you be willing to risk your eternal salvation on this belief that all of your simple mistakes are not sin? Would you be willing to pray for God to forgive you from your moral mistakes that you acknowledge and then say, I do not need forgiveness for mistakes that were beyond my knowledge, the mistakes that I may have made with good intentions.



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branham1965
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Re: WHAT'S WRONG WITH BEING PERFECT?

Post by branham1965 »

JESUS PRACTICED WHAT HE PREACHED.HE FEARED GOD ,NOT MAN.Luke 12.
He never sinned nor was guile found in His mouth.He never sinned.

The Lord Jesus Christ was God manifested in the flesh.
1 Timothy 3:16.The Word was God.God the Son was made flesh. John 1:1,14,18.
In Jesus Christ dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.Colossians 2:9.


" In the days of His flesh,He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying to Him who is able to save Him from death,and He was heard because of His PIETY." NASB 1995

"And in the days of his flesh,Jesus offered up prayers and supplications,with loud cries and tears,to him who was able to save him from death,and it was heard because of his REVERENCE." ESV
" and he was heard for his godly fear." RSV
"and having been heard for his godly fear'.ASV 1901
JESUS was heard because of his reverence ." NAB Revised Catholic
" He was heard because of His reverence toward God,His godly fear ,His piety ,in that He shrank in from the horrors of separation from the bright presence of the Father." Amplified Bible.
"and he was heard because of his reverent submission." NRSV
Last edited by branham1965 on Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.



Hill Top
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Re: WHAT'S WRONG WITH BEING PERFECT?

Post by Hill Top »

Grandfather wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:26 am
Hill Top wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:10 pm
Grandfather wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:20 am
Who determines the motive?
Everyone, if it impacts them.
I'm trying to follow you here. So, if an action does not directly impact someone they have no standing to judge motive to determine if it was a simple mistake or a sin? Is this what you are stating?
If a Somalian dropped by and read the past three pages, (random number), could he judge my, or your motives?
I think not.
It is just a stream of words to him.
Hill Top wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:10 pm
Grandfather wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:20 am
Using the above example, the person doing the research could say their motive was pure and honorable. There motive was to show that people had been following a myth and there was no sound reason for doing so.
But what would be the point of lying?
Again, I'm trying to understand you. I understand the severity in the difference of intentionally misleading people and accidently misleading people. I understand that someone may intentionally mislead people (ie LIE) for a mirade of reasons. I believe everyone would call that degree of misleading a sin. (Does anyone dispute this?)
However, I know that people can be as equally mislead by someone that has, in their mind, a pure and honorable intention. The damage to those that follow that information is no less hurtful, no less painful. The consciquences are no less real than those that were lead astry by the intentional lies. (Does anyone dispute this?)
Why does the person in the second situation get away will calling the action a mistake? Why is telling a falsehood one believes to be true less sinful than telling a falsehood known to false. Both are telling falsehoods, ie LIES.
It isn't a falsehood to the one who mistakenly said it.
They thought it was the truth.
Hill Top wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:10 pm
Grandfather wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:20 am
Is that simply a mistake or is it sinful?
If you send me 5 dollars I will answer.
THAT would be a sinful motive.
Why would asking for money be a sinful motive? I can quickly think of several a reason it might be justified. Perhaps you would incur some expense in providing the answer. Why should you bear that cost?
Send the money and I will answer.
Hill Top wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:10 pm
I used the information at hand and made an erroneous determination.
Why would you infer a sinful motive if I have nothing to gain from it?
Why does a person have to gain something in order for an action to be sinful?
It is extortion.



Hill Top
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Re: WHAT'S WRONG WITH BEING PERFECT?

Post by Hill Top »

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:17 pm
Hill Top wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:42 pm
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:05 pm
bibleman wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:08 pm
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:00 pm
Isn't one definition of sin falling short of the glory of God?

Who does not fall short of God's glory?
Hilltop is the only person I know.
Remember that time when Hill Top compared his fear of a minor elective surgery to Jesus' Passion? Sure didn't fall short there, did he?

Image
Without your "quote" on that I will discount that "claim".
If memory serves me correctly, someone was again trying to infer sin because of my fear.
I pointed out that the sinless Christ also once "feared" something, to counter that accusation, so perhaps that is what you are remembering.

You don't think Jesus was a sinner because He feared, do you?
Looks like you don't really need me to quote you on it, since you've just done it again by asking whether or not Jesus sinned through fear.

Context matters.
Why not just answer the question?



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luchnia
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Re: WHAT'S WRONG WITH BEING PERFECT?

Post by luchnia »

Grandfather wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:19 pm
Let me come at this from another angle. Would you be willing to risk your eternal salvation on this belief that all of your simple mistakes are not sin? Would you be willing to pray for God to forgive you from your moral mistakes that you acknowledge and then say, I do not need forgiveness for mistakes that were beyond my knowledge, the mistakes that I may have made with good intentions.
I appreciate this level of thought. My preference would be having the wisdom from God to know the difference.

Currently I don't believe that God holds eternal life against someone simply because they may be ignorant. If so then many are doomed to eternal torments. I know some believe that and from some scriptures one might think that is the case, but I don't.

To me understanding is the better part. For example a text that is often used out of context is "him that knows to do good and does it not is sin." What does "good" mean in the concept being taught in that chapter? You cannot make mistakes, or is good based on righteous works as spelled out in scripture, because a mistake is neither unrighteous nor righteous, good nor bad.

Does our failure at doing good for all humanity cost us eternal life because no one today can or does good for all? Even HT in his "perfect as Jesus" doctrine, doesn't meet, or even come close to this goal. It is humanly impossible goal to achieve simply because of the limitations placed upon this earthly vessel we live in.

Since I am fallible at many levels (based on my understanding of walking as a human) then for me it boils down to confessing with my mouth and believing in my heart that God raised Jesus from the dead that I am saved. If I put a lot more into the equation then my mind becomes clouded and cluttered and my eternal life often comes to be questioned - a place I do not like to tread.


Word up!

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