Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ God's role in sickness - Permissive or Causative

[Justaned]

You obviously ascribe to the theory God lost control of the earth he created and owns. If God isn't in control then why do you pray to HIm to change your situations? I mean if God's hands are tied as you seem to suggest then how can God change anything you pray about? You have a far lower opinion of God than I do, my God owns the cattle on a thousand hills along with owning the hills, My God is in control and my God is totally sovereign. As scripture says God does as he pleases.

Because God delegated His authority in the earth to men and expect them to exercise it (Gen. 1:26-28). We exercise the will of God through prayer (Matt. 6:10; Eze. 22:30; James 4:2). God does not take back His authority that He has given to others nor does He do what He has delegated to others to do (Rom. 11:29).

He owns the earth but that does not mean that He is controlling everything that happens on the earth. I own my house but I am not controlling everything my wife and kids do. Each member of my household has delegated responsibilities. Furthermore even though I own my home I never enter any of my daughter's rooms without knocking and being invited in. Jesus does the same thing (Rev. 2:20).

Doing what He pleases does not mean that everything done on the earth pleases God. For example, He has clearly said that He is not pleased with the death of the wicked. Yet, the wicked are dying everyday. In another passages of Scripture He said that He cannot be pleased apart from faith. Yet there are billions of faithless men in the world.

Scripture refutes your Calvinistic concept of an all-controlling deity. Stop reading the Calvinist junk that you claim you don't believe but advocate and get back into Scripture.

God gave man dominion over every living thing on the earth, not over the earth itself. Read you own scirpture reference.
When I worked in the corporate world my manager gave me donimion over my department, but he didn't give me my department. He still very much owned it and any profit that came from the department was given to him first.

God owner and possessor of the earth!

Genesis 14:19 (NKJV)
19 And he blessed him and said: "Blessed be Abram of God Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth;

Exodus 19:5 (NKJV)
5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine.

Deuteronomy 10:14 (NKJV)
14 Indeed heaven and the highest heavens belong to the Lord your God, also the earth with all that is in it.

1 Chronicles 29:11 (NKJV)
11 Yours, O Lord, is the greatness, The power and the glory, The victory and the majesty; For all that is in heaven and in earth is Yours; Yours is the kingdom, O Lord, And You are exalted as head over all.

Job 41:11 (NKJV)
11 Who has preceded Me, that I should pay him? Everything under heaven is Mine.

Psalms 24:1 (NKJV)
1 A Psalm of David. The earth is the Lord's, and all its fullness, The world and those who dwell therein.

Psalms 50:10 (NKJV)
10 For every beast of the forest is Mine, And the cattle on a thousand hills.

Psalms 89:11 (NKJV)
11 The heavens are Yours, the earth also is Yours; The world and all its fullness, You have founded them.

Psalms 104:24 (NKJV)
24 O Lord, how manifold are Your works! In wisdom You have made them all. The earth is full of Your possessions--

Daniel 5:23 (NKJV)
23 And you have lifted yourself up against the Lord of heaven. They have brought the vessels of His house before you, and you and your lords, your wives and your concubines, have drunk wine from them. And you have praised the gods of silver and gold, bronze and iron, wood and stone, which do not see or hear or know; and the God who holds your breath in His hand and owns all your ways, you have not glorified

Matthew 5:34-35 (NKJV)
34 But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God's throne; 35 nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.

1 Corinthians 10:26 (NKJV)
26 for "the earth is the Lord's, and all its fullness."

1 Corinthians 10:28 (NKJV)
28 But if anyone says to you, "This was offered to idols," do not eat it for the sake of the one who told you, and for conscience' sake; for "the earth is the Lord's, and all its fullness."

[Justaned]

You obviously ascribe to the theory God lost control of the earth he created and owns. If God isn't in control then why do you pray to HIm to change your situations? I mean if God's hands are tied as you seem to suggest then how can God change anything you pray about? You have a far lower opinion of God than I do, my God owns the cattle on a thousand hills along with owning the hills, My God is in control and my God is totally sovereign. As scripture says God does as he pleases.

Because God delegated His authority in the earth to men and expect them to exercise it (Gen. 1:26-28). We exercise the will of God through prayer (Matt. 6:10; Eze. 22:30; James 4:2). God does not take back His authority that He has given to others nor does He do what He has delegated to others to do (Rom. 11:29).

He owns the earth but that does not mean that He is controlling everything that happens on the earth. I own my house but I am not controlling everything my wife and kids do. Each member of my household has delegated responsibilities. Furthermore even though I own my home I never enter any of my daughter's rooms without knocking and being invited in. Jesus does the same thing (Rev. 2:20).

Doing what He pleases does not mean that everything done on the earth pleases God. For example, He has clearly said that He is not pleased with the death of the wicked. Yet, the wicked are dying everyday. In another passages of Scripture He said that He cannot be pleased apart from faith. Yet there are billions of faithless men in the world.

Scripture refutes your Calvinistic concept of an all-controlling deity. Stop reading the Calvinist junk that you claim you don't believe but advocate and get back into Scripture.

I have never supportted or championed Calvinism or an all controling deity.
I have simply said my God is able to allow me my free will and still be in control of the course of my life.

His word says my steps are ordered of the Lord. Psalm 37:23 (NKJV)
23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD, And He delights in his way.
Or was this written by David in his Calvinist days?

[Justaned]

God is Sovereign His Word DEClARES it!!!!!!!!! And to deny it is to deny God's word.
Sovereignty of God
1 Chronicles 16:31 (NKJV)
31 Let the heavens rejoice, and let the earth be glad; And let them say among the nations, "The Lord reigns."
Psalms 22:28 (NKJV)
28 For the kingdom is the Lord's, And He rules over the nations.
Psalms 47:2 (NKJV)
2 For the Lord Most High is awesome; He is a great King over all the earth.
Psalms 47:7 (NKJV)
7 For God is the King of all the earth; Sing praises with understanding.
Psalms 47:8 (NKJV)
8 God reigns over the nations; God sits on His holy throne.
Psalms 83:18 (NKJV)
18 That they may know that You, whose name alone is the Lord, Are the Most High over all the earth.
Psalms 135:6 (NKJV)
6 Whatever the Lord pleases He does, In heaven and in earth, In the seas and in all deep places.
Proverbs 21:1 (NKJV)
1 The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, Like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wishes.
Isaiah 43:15 (NKJV)
15 I am the Lord, your Holy One, The Creator of Israel, your King."
Isaiah 44:6 (NKJV)
6 "Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: 'I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God.
Isaiah 54:5 (NKJV)
5 For your Maker is your husband, The Lord of hosts is His name; And your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel; He is called the God of the whole earth.
Jeremiah 18:6 (NKJV)
6 "O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?" says the Lord. "Look, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel!
Ezekiel 20:33 (NKJV)
33 "As I live," says the Lord God, "surely with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out, I will rule over you.
Daniel 4:32 (NKJV)
32 And they shall drive you from men, and your dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field. They shall make you eat grass like oxen; and seven times shall pass over you, until you know that the Most High rules in the kingdom of men, and gives it to whomever He chooses."
Daniel 4:35 (NKJV)
35 All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; He does according to His will in the army of heaven And among the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand Or say to Him, "What have You done?"
Acts 17:24 (NKJV)
24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands.
Ephesians 1:11 (NKJV)
11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
Jude 1:25 (NKJV)
25 To God our Savior, Who alone is wise, Be glory and majesty, Dominion and power, Both now and forever. Amen.
Genesis 11:9
Exodus 14:4
Exodus 14:25
Judges 7:22
1 Samuel 19:24
2 Samuel 17:14
2 Kings 7:6
2 Kings 19:7
2 Kings 19:28
2 Chronicles 11:4
2 Chronicles 18:31
Job 12:19
Psalm 21:12
Psalm 32:10
Psalm 35:4
Psalm 76:10
Psalm 125:5
Proverbs 16:9
Proverbs 21:1
Isaiah 30:28
Isaiah 37:7
Isaiah 37:29
Isaiah 37:34
Isaiah 40:23
Isaiah 42:17
Isaiah 44:25
Jeremiah 18:7
Lamentations 1:13
Ezekiel 17:20
Ezekiel 29:4
Ezekiel 30:24
Ezekiel 32:3
Ezekiel 38:4
Ezekiel 39:2
Daniel 4:25
Amos 4:2
Mark 1:34
John 7:30
John 7:44
John 8:20
Acts 5:25
Acts 17:26
Acts 23:23
Revelation 17:17
God is Sovereign His Word DEClARES it!!!!!!!!!

[Justaned]

Isn't God free to play an active or a passive role in sickness?

I don't think the distinction is between acitve or passive; I think it's between causative or permissive.

God certainly took an active role in what happened with Job. He had put a hedge around him, which had to be removed in order for Satan to be able to get at him. God was also active in limiting the extent to which Satan could bring calamity into Job's life. He was active in using the working of Satan as a means of testing Job. So in that sense, God was in control of the situation without being the cause of what was happening.

I think we see the same active role of God later in the testing of Peter (Luke 22.31-34), and in the provision of a "way of escape" from the tests and tempations that come to us all (1 Cor 10.13).

Father Fisher, can you boil all this down? Active, passive, causative or permissive when it comes to God's role?? There seems to be more agreement defining Satan's role!?

I agree with Dr. Dake re. God having six purposes for allowing Satan to continue. I disagree with VW's argument that God has allowed Satan to continue for the sole purpose of demonstrating He is a good God.

I agree with VW's main position that man is responsible for resolving all his problems based on the atonement and instructions of the New Covenant.

I agree with Ed that God has had and does have a major influence in the lives of each person as well as the events in Joseph's life and other patriarchs. God was and is active in the lives of unbelievers setting up circumstances for events to turn out in the way He wishes BUT NOT ALL EVENTS AND MAN'S ACTIONS, which would be Calvinism.

Do we have three or four positions here? Could everyone (FF, VW and Ed) make a short, concise position summary?

Dolph
Your right quoting proof texts doesn't prove much, but I did it because this is the proof text crowd. However there are enough verses to supply witness testimony (God through Moses that it take two or three witnesses for conviction).

Now you ask if we have three or four positions and there probably are and even more if everyone was able to clearly articulate their personal view of God interaction with man.

The problem however, I really believe this to be true, is we try to define God in man's understanding. And God clearly told us His ways are not man's ways.
That means God is able to do things that man can not comprehend, understand or define.
God has given us free will, we know this because God has told us for our salvation we must believe in Jesus Christ and that if we don't believe we are doomed.
But we also know what we read in various Bible stories where people and demonsour adversary do various things intending for one outcome and God using his sovereign power makes those things work to good of God's people.

How can this happen? In man's world it can't it would require God to manipulate man, events, factors to have it turn out in God's favor.

However in scripture says with God nothing is impossible. I believe that.
I believe God is able to be in total and absolute control but never hinder man's free will choices. Impossible for man but very possible with God.

How does God do this? I don't know but I believe God's ability to transcend time meaning God can see the future as well as the past and present enables God to incorporate man's free will decisions into His overall plan long before man has made his decision.

What makes me wonder the most is people that see God as little more than a bemused spectator of the happenings on earth, praying. If God is surprised by one's death then why pray for long life God by their thinking isn't in control of it? Why pray for health if Christians never were meant to be sick, and God has nothing to do with who is sick or not? Why pray for a healing when God doesn't control you destiny?

I mean if you really believe this world is controled by Satan and God can do nothing why pray? Now someone mentioned that our prayers free God. Is that prideful or what. Man not God is in control of what God is able to do.

Many cite the passage where Jesus due to their disbelief was unable to do mighty works. However the full passage says Jesus still healed people, still ministered to their physical needs. Jesus just wasn't able to do HIs MIGHTY work which is salvation. Why because God gave man free will and man refuses to believe God can't save him.

[Justaned]

Ed, you're throwing the baby out with the bath water. Proof texts are the only way to clarify a biblical fact or doctrine. Yes, there is the danger of using not enough proof texts or putting a spin on one or two texts to make a point, but the fact remains that the Bible explains itself and is the final authority. If you think everything is beyond man's ability to understand, then why even participate on a discussion board?

I would agree there are still some unanswered mysteries that aren't addressed in the Bible. For example, if we are TOTALLY saved by grace and deserve zero credit for our salvation, why do we get to go to Heaven and another doesn't? If we say, I am smarter, that's taking credit and is works and not giving God 100% credit for our salvation. I haven't studied Calvin but some times it seems like all is predetermined. Did Luther agree with Calvin's predestination? Our Pilgrims did.

What about the people who lived between Adam and Christ around the world? We are kidding ourselves if we think they had any chance to choose the One true God, except for the Jews.

Dolph
To better understand proof-texting read this excerpt from Wikipedia.

Prooftexting (sometimes "proof-texting" or "proof texting") is the practice of using isolated quotations from a document to establish a proposition. Using discrete quotations is generally seen as decontextualised. Critics note that such quotes may not accurately reflect the original intent of the author, and that a document quoted in such a manner may not in fact support the proposition for which it was cited when read as a whole.

This is to be distinguished from quotations from a source deemed a hostile witness, who inadvertently substantiates a point beneficial to his opponents in the course of his own narrative. Even when lifted out of context, those facts still stand.

Many ministers and teachers have used some version of the following humorous anecdote to demonstrate the dangers of prooftexting: "A man dissatisfied with his life decided to consult the Bible for guidance. Closing his eyes, he flipped the book open and pointed to a spot on the page. Opening his eyes, he read the verse under his finger. It read, "Then Judas went away and hanged himself" (Matthew 27:5b) Closing his eyes again, the man randomly selected another verse. This one read, "Jesus told him, 'Go and do likewise.'" (Luke 10:37b)"

The problem is not the use of the scripture to validate a legitimate doctrine which is clearly seen in scripture and supportted by all of the Bible. The problem is using a verse to support a teaching that was never intended or implied in scripture. Or trying to universally apply a verse that was specific to a person, situation or a time.

For instance many churches with take

Genesis 13:17 (NKJV)
17 Arise, walk in the land through its length and its width, for I give it to you."

as a mandate to claim land and will go walk it or around it claiming the land is theirs and expecting if they have enough faith God will give it to them. When it fact God never such a promise, may have promised the land to somone else, or the land could already be a in good Christians hand. In any case when the church doesn't get the land the answer is someone didn't have enought faith or someone spoke negatively about the plan or some other excuse.

I never throw the baby out with the bath water. I always look carefully through the bath water to make sure any baby is in fact out. Just as a I don't casually reject doctrine I make sure that doctrine isn't woven all through scripture. God said there must be two or three witnesses for a verdict. If I can only find one witness I know this isn't God's doctrine.

[bibleman]

For instance many churches with take

Genesis 13:17 (NKJV) 17 Arise, walk in the land through its length and its width, for I give it to you."

as a mandate to claim land and will go walk it or around it claiming the land is theirs and expecting if they have enough faith God will give it to them. When it fact God never such a promise, may have promised the land to somone else, or the land could already be a in good Christians hand. In any case when the church doesn't get the land the answer is someone didn't have enought faith or someone spoke negatively about the plan or some other excuse.

Hi Ed,

Does that mean that our church has to give back the 8 acres of land, on main street, in Laurens SC, that our church owns?

I wish you had told me this faith stuff and confession does not work... before we went and believed God for all these blessings HE has give us!

[Justaned]

For instance many churches with take

Genesis 13:17 (NKJV) 17 Arise, walk in the land through its length and its width, for I give it to you."

as a mandate to claim land and will go walk it or around it claiming the land is theirs and expecting if they have enough faith God will give it to them. When it fact God never such a promise, may have promised the land to somone else, or the land could already be a in good Christians hand. In any case when the church doesn't get the land the answer is someone didn't have enought faith or someone spoke negatively about the plan or some other excuse.

Hi Ed,

Does that mean that our church has to give back the 8 acres of land, on main street, in Laurens SC, that our church owns?

I wish you had told me this faith stuff and confession does not work... before we went and believed God for all these blessings HE has given us!

Bibleman
You do what ever you want to do. I only know what scripture says and scripture never promised to give everyone that coveted a piece of ground that ground. What happens when two Christians covet the same piece of ground and that piece is owned by a Christian that God have given to him before?

[Justaned]

Leon, you better give back the land!

Ed, always the contrarian! There are exceptions to every rule. Again, throwing the baby out.........

Maybe station armed guards around it in case some other church claims it and starts walking around it.

Remember you guys are the ones that says God always gives you your heart desire. So if some other church desires it, it is as good as gone according to your theology.

[branham1965]

like everything else its been abused to death.

The written WORD is the Logos .The spoken WORD is a Rhema Word from God.

God gave a Rhema WORD to Pastor Bible then it applied for his land.

He did it for my late Reverend.

extremes exist in everything.

[branham1965]

your not reading it properly.its clear that others had opportunity to serve Jehovah.
when you deny 6 million of His people were murdered you get in trouble with Him.

Ed, you're throwing the baby out with the bath water. Proof texts are the only way to clarify a biblical fact or doctrine. Yes, there is the danger of using not enough proof texts or putting a spin on one or two texts to make a point, but the fact remains that the Bible explains itself and is the final authority. If you think everything is beyond man's ability to understand, then why even participate on a discussion board?

I would agree there are still some unanswered mysteries that aren't addressed in the Bible. For example, if we are TOTALLY saved by grace and deserve zero credit for our salvation, why do we get to go to Heaven and another doesn't? If we say, I am smarter, that's taking credit and is works and not giving God 100% credit for our salvation. I haven't studied Calvin but some times it seems like all is predetermined. Did Luther agree with Calvin's predestination? Our Pilgrims did.

What about the people who lived between Adam and Christ around the world? We are kidding ourselves if we think they had any chance to choose the One true God, except for the Jews.