Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ WHO WAS GREATER: MOSES OR PAUL

[macca]

Me too

[Ray]

To me, the texts do suggest that both Moses and Elijah showed up in tangible physical bodies. The reason I believe this is the fact that Peter wanted to build three tabernacles (or shelters)... One for Jesus, one for Moses, and one for Elijah. To me, it's clear that Peter thought both Moses and Elijah were there in tangible physical bodies. Otherwise, he wouldn't have thought they needed shelters.

They were not "shelters". They were meant to be tabernacles or memorials of this event (Peter actually didn't know what to say other than something like "Let's remember this occasion forever"). There is no connection to physical bodies whatsoever.

Moses wouldn't have needed to have partaken of the Fist Resurrection in order to appear on the mount any more than Elijah would have to have partaken. The scriptures give at least a few examples of folks being raised from the dead prior to Jesus' resurrection.

But Elijah didn't die. Moses did. And any others raised prior to Jesus' resurrection died again; Jesus was the first to rise from the dead in a glorified body, never to die again.

If a dead person were raised to life before Jesus was raised from the dead and caught up to Heaven like Enoch and Elijah, they could continue living in their natural bodies indefinitely.

Enoch and Elijah were not raised to life; they never died.


The idea of the First Resurrection does not prevent this any more than it prevented Jesus from raising Lazarus from the dead. Had Lazarus been caught up like Enoch and Elijah, he could still be alive in a natural body, in Heaven.

Lazarus was not caught up.

Those of us that that believe (like Clarence Larkin, see page 85 of his book, The Book of Revelation) that God raised Moses from the dead and took Moses to Heaven after Michael and Satan disputed over Moses' body are not required to believe that Moses was given an immortal body any more than we are required to believe that Enoch and Elijah were given immortal bodies when they were caught up.

Moses died and God buried the body. Nothing in the Bible hints at the fact that He changed His mind and raised him bodily from the dead.
And if God had raised Moses from the dead after making sure he was buried, then He certainly would have had to give Moses an immortal body, according to 1 Cor. 15.50: "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption". Enoch and Elijah did not require immortal bodies because they never died. Moses died and his body was buried. Completely different circumstances.

The idea of the First Resurrection does not in any way preclude the idea of Moses being raised from the dead and then taken to Heaven in a natural body.

Yes it does, for the reasons I have given. A non-glorified Moses could not be in heaven bodily. A glorified Moses had to await the resurrection of Jesus.

Brother Fisher,
Above you wrote about the tabernacles of which Peter wanted to build on the Mount of Tranfiguration:
"They were not "shelters". They were meant to be tabernacles or memorials of this event (Peter actually didn't know what to say other than something like "Let's remember this occasion forever"). There is no connection to physical bodies whatsoever."

A "Tabernacle" (greek "skene" tent) is in fact a Shelter, as the feast of Tabernacles commanded by GOD to be celebrated by the Children of Israel that they would build booths (tabernacles) as they had when they journeyed from Egypt.

John 7:2
2 Now the Jew's feast of tabernacles was at hand.

Leviticus 23:40-44
40 And ye shall take you on the first day the boughs of goodly trees, branches of palm trees, and the boughs of thick trees, and willows of the brook; and ye shall rejoice before the Lord your God seven days.
41 And ye shall keep it a feast unto the Lord seven days in the year. It shall be a statute for ever in your generations: ye shall celebrate it in the seventh month.
42 Ye shall dwell in booths seven days; all that are Israelites born shall dwell in booths:
43 That your generations may know that I made the children of Israel to dwell in booths, when I brought them out of the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.
44 And Moses declared unto the children of Israel the feasts of the Lord.

You wrote:
"But Elijah didn't die. Moses did. And any others raised prior to Jesus' resurrection died again; Jesus was the first to rise from the dead in a glorified body, never to die again."

True. Yet how many times in all of Scripture has Michael the archangel,(or any Angel) contend with the devil to disputed about the body of Anyone ????
ONCE.

You wrote:
"Moses died and God buried the body. Nothing in the Bible hints at the fact that He changed His mind and raised him bodily from the dead."

Why "Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses"????

Brother Fisher and Ed,
If Moses was not there bodily at the Mount then was Elijah there bodily ?

The two witnesses from the Book of Revelation will they appear BODILY ??

[macca]

Wow, this is getting way out there man.

[macca]

What did Jesus mean when he said
" let the dead bury the dead" ?

[titus213]

Jesus never said they were alive bodily. They were awaiting their glorified bodies. 1 Cor 15:20-23 says Christ was the first.

[Justaned]

First of all let me say we are building boxes that we are not qualified to build.
Notice how we say with certainity if x then y can't happen? Yet scripture says with God all things are possible. So while man may say if x then y can't happen scripture says with God if x then y may or may not happen.

We know Enoch and Elijah did not die on earth, they were caught up with God. Did they die on the way? Possible we don't know.
Are they alive but in a section of heaven that they can exist as moral man? Possible.
Have they died and been given a spiritual body much like the Angels that manifested in the past had? Again possible.
Are there only two or three states of man, alive, dead, glorified body, or is there more? Possible.

Now let get our heads out of philosphical debates and back to the word.

The thread is WHO IS GREATER: MOSES OR PAUL
I cautioned everyone to be careful, that I didn't think either PAUL nor MOSES would approve of this discussion.

Here is a verse I want you all to think about.
Romans 14:4 (NASB)
4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

Since Moses and Paul were both servants of the Lord I think any discussion such as this one falls within the range of the this verse. Don't you?

I believe God buried Moses because he did not want the Children of Israel to end up worshipping Moses. I believe that is still true today. The debate is not which is greater, both were servants of God. God should be our focus not any of his servants.

While I'm on this soap box let me say that is problem with many today with preachers, they attend or follow a mere servant and miss following the servants master. If you get my point. Our focus is not to be on man, whether a great preacher or Moses that lead the Children of Israel to freedom, not on Paul the writter of a big part of the New Testament. Our focus and energy should be on God the master of all these men.

THUD! That was me getting off my soapbox.

[bibleman]

First of all let me say we are building boxes that we are not qualified to build.
Notice how we say with certainity if x then y can't happen? Yet scripture says with God all things are possible. So while man may say if x then y can't happen scripture says with God if x then y may or may not happen.

We know Enoch and Elijah did not die on earth, they were caught up with God. Did they die on the way? Possible we don't know.
Are they alive but in a section of heaven that they can exist as moral man? Possible.
Have they died and been given a spiritual body much like the Angels that manifested in the past had? Again possible.
Are there only two or three states of man, alive, dead, glorified body, or is there more? Possible.

Now let get our heads out of philosphical debates and back to the word.

The thread is WHO IS GREATER: MOSES OR PAUL
I cautioned everyone to be careful, that I didn't think either PAUL nor MOSES would approve of this discussion.

Here is a verse I want you all to think about.
Romans 14:4 (NASB)
4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

Since Moses and Paul were both servants of the Lord I think any discussion such as this one falls within the range of the this verse. Don't you?

I believe God buried Moses because he did not want the Children of Israel to end up worshipping Moses. I believe that is still true today. The debate is not which is greater, both were servants of God. God should be our focus not any of his servants.

While I'm on this soap box let me say that is problem with many today with preachers, they attend or follow a mere servant and miss following the servants master. If you get my point. Our focus is not to be on man, whether a great preacher or Moses that lead the Children of Israel to freedom, not on Paul the writter of a big part of the New Testament. Our focus and energy should be on God the master of all these men.

THUD! That was me getting off my soapbox.

Hi Ed,

Above you said: "First of all let me say we are building boxes that we are not qualified to build. Notice how we say with certainity if x then y can't happen? Yet scripture says with God all things are possible. So while man may say if x then y can't happen scripture says with God if x then y may or may not happen."

So are you saying that when God says something in Scripture... that HE does NOT have to do what HE says?

[Justaned]

First of all let me say we are building boxes that we are not qualified to build.
Notice how we say with certainity if x then y can't happen? Yet scripture says with God all things are possible. So while man may say if x then y can't happen scripture says with God if x then y may or may not happen.

We know Enoch and Elijah did not die on earth, they were caught up with God. Did they die on the way? Possible we don't know.
Are they alive but in a section of heaven that they can exist as moral man? Possible.
Have they died and been given a spiritual body much like the Angels that manifested in the past had? Again possible.
Are there only two or three states of man, alive, dead, glorified body, or is there more? Possible.

Now let get our heads out of philosphical debates and back to the word.

The thread is WHO IS GREATER: MOSES OR PAUL
I cautioned everyone to be careful, that I didn't think either PAUL nor MOSES would approve of this discussion.

Here is a verse I want you all to think about.
Romans 14:4 (NASB)
4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

Since Moses and Paul were both servants of the Lord I think any discussion such as this one falls within the range of the this verse. Don't you?

I believe God buried Moses because he did not want the Children of Israel to end up worshipping Moses. I believe that is still true today. The debate is not which is greater, both were servants of God. God should be our focus not any of his servants.

While I'm on this soap box let me say that is problem with many today with preachers, they attend or follow a mere servant and miss following the servants master. If you get my point. Our focus is not to be on man, whether a great preacher or Moses that lead the Children of Israel to freedom, not on Paul the writter of a big part of the New Testament. Our focus and energy should be on God the master of all these men.

THUD! That was me getting off my soapbox.

Hi Ed,

Above you said: "First of all let me say we are building boxes that we are not qualified to build. Notice how we say with certainity if x then y can't happen? Yet scripture says with God all things are possible. So while man may say if x then y can't happen scripture says with God if x then y may or may not happen."

So are you saying that when God says something in Scripture... that HE does NOT have to do what HE says?

Bibleman
Where is that coming from? I was saying God is not bound by man's rules, nor can God be placed in a box man constructed. God can do whatever God wants to no matter whether it appears logical, predictable or even imaginable by man.

[titus213]

You need to keep His comments in context. He is speaking to Saducees who believed life ended at death (see Acts 23:8). He shows them that even Moses would not have agreed. The 3 patriarchs were in fact alive, proving there will be a resurrection of the dead. But Jesus never taught the resurrection had already happened. He taught it as something future awaiting His own as in John 5:28-29. Romans, 1 Cor and Colossians all confirm the fact that Jesus was the FIRST to rise from the dead in a glorified, immortal body.

[macca]

You got that right Ray...... Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are alive in the spirit at the time of Jesus's statement as all those in Abraham's bosum were...

All those on the other side in hell were and are dead in the spirit. Eph. 2: Luke. 16:

macca