Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ God's role in sickness - Permissive or Causative

[branham1965]

VW

im not explaining this very well.

i sound like Uncle Cy on Duck Dynasty.

[branham1965]

i was joking a bit here.to be able to discern these thoughts and views takes....EXPOSURE to them. ive read alot of the revisionist books.even down right far far right books. the Turner Diaries and Hunter.other things. this was when i was in the deepest pit.
there was fiery Father Coughlin in the 1930's.he got booted off the radio for blasting the Jews in Hollywood and the media.
this site is interesting. TRUTHINHISTORY.ORG its not David Irvings site.
it is Dr.Dowies people.Rev.Charles Jennings.they have some fascinating articles.are 100%%% PROTESTANTS and they hate POPERY or Simonism and i like the stories of the Hymns. they are British Israelists like Dr.Dowie was.

dolph
you sound like an individual who embraces white supremacist ideas. you are right down the line with them.

Many Native American Indians feel the same way about the land in the US. While the cowboy movies usually portray the Indians for attacks and breaking treaties, it was actually the US government that broke most of the treaties. If you look at the problems that many Indians have today in their reservations and Nations, much of it is because of this.

That's the Hollywood line. The white Christians were the barbarians and the Indians were angels. These savages were in constant warfare before we ever came, hadn't yet discovered the wheel and worshiped the Devil in many different forms.

[Justaned]

Here is my position:

I do not believe God ever wanted or planned sickness to come into the universe. It is all due to the fact that Adam brought death through sin into the world (Rom. 5:12).

There is problem with your position on sickness, human physiology. The human body was contructed to fight invasion of foreign bodies, be they splinters, germs or other microbes. White blood cells by design isolate foreign bodies the enter our body. Then there is the whole world of antibodies and other microbe fighters we have in our bodies.

God designed this defensive mechanism into us.

Why?

Because he never planned for sickness?

I don't think so. God knows the beginning and the end. God saw man sick before man was created.

We also know that cells by design die and are replaced, science has also discovered that there is a chronosome within our body that controls this and that, that control mechanism gets depleted with every cell division and eventually fails to replace normal dying cells with new ones. This allows disease and other factors to enter our bodies.

Science now speculates that this control mechanism may be replenished and the human body would go on making new cells to replace the ones that die.

Of course science is looking for the fountain of youth but I wonder if they have stumbled upon the secret of the relationship of the Tree of Life and man before the fall.

The Tree was planted with purpose in the garden, God had told Adam he could eat of all the trees except the Tree of Knowledge of God and Evil. So there was no prohibition for Adam and Eve from eating from the tree pior to the fall. It also was the very reason given by God for driving Adam and Eve from the garden to prevent them for further eating of the tree of life.

It may explain why they had such a long life span which began to diminish with each generation.

A tree by the same name is seen again in the New Jerusalem. A tree with a unique name, The TREE of LIFE. Doesn't sound like a mere apple tree now does it.

[victoryword]

VW
thank you for your response.i think i might understand what you are saying.i attended Grace Cathedral on and off in Akron .i was stunned when Reverend Angley rebuked that popular notion from the Pulpit.He did not accept that teaching at all.not at all.He taught Mercy and also Judgement.and its frightening.
the LORD said through Moses He killed.He casts many into eternal death in matthew 25:41.yes???He killed both Annanias and Sapphira.He killed Herod.And He blinded Elymas.Paul sent His Judgement out on many people!!!!He kills much of the earth in Revelation.yes???
he taught on the Judgements of God.im not just talking.i know what it is to get waylaid by the LORD.

Hi BIlly

Saying that God killed Ananias and Sapphira is an assumption that cannot necessarily be proven from the text itself. Observe:

• And as he heard these words, Ananias fell down and breathed his last; and great fear came over all who heard of it.... And immediately she fell at his feet and breathed her last, and the young men came in and found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. (Acts 5:5, 10)

Nothing in the text that says that God killed them - especially not directly. As for Elymas, he was not made sick or diseased. He was simply blinded, and only for a period of time. Observe:

• "Now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon you, and you will be blind and not see the sun for a time." And immediately a mist and a darkness fell upon him, and he went about seeking those who would lead him by the hand. (Acts 13:11)

That was not a sickness but a temporary blindness which should have led him to repentance. As far as Revelation is concerned, Rev. 6:11 which says, "And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

I have in my personal Library a commentary by a professor of theology named Anthony Tyrell Hanson that is titled THE WRATH OF THE LAMB. I don't feel like typing up his full comments on this passage (besides, it could violate the "fair use" copyright laws), but here is a portion:

• In several apocalyptic works we read of the judgment of the Messiah, but nowhere in any of them do we meet so astonishing a phrase as "the wrath of the Lamb". Its very incongruity should make us look at it more carefully. Wrath in the rest of the book always means "the working out of history of the consequences of sin", and this is undoubtedly the meaning that it has here. But it is the wrath of the Lamb, the Lamb who is to us the living representative of the sacrificial love of God. "The Lamb" is no epitheton ornans in a writer like John. So the "wrath of the Lamb" is here the working out in history of the consequences of the rejection and crucifixion of the Messiah (Luke 23.30) - p. 170

Hanson is saying that God's wrath is exercised, not by personally causing the destructive events we read in Revelation six, but by allowing the consequences of man's rejection of Him to naturally play out. As a matter of fact, the first couple of verses in Rev. 6, according to Hanson, depict a cosmic warfare between God and Satan with the followers of Satan suffering.

I hope that this helps.

[victoryword]

Here is my position:

I do not believe God ever wanted or planned sickness to come into the universe. It is all due to the fact that Adam brought death through sin into the world (Rom. 5:12).

There is problem with your position on sickness, human physiology. The human body was contructed to fight invasion of foreign bodies, be they splinters, germs or other microbes. White blood cells by design isolate foreign bodies the enter our body. Then there is the whole world of antibodies and other microbe fighters we have in our bodies.

God designed this defensive mechanism into us.

Why?

Because he never planned for sickness?

I don't think so. God knows the beginning and the end. God saw man sick before man was created.

We also know that cells by design die and are replaced, science has also discovered that there is a chronosome within our body that controls this and that, that control mechanism gets depleted with every cell division and eventually fails to replace normal dying cells with new ones. This allows disease and other factors to enter our bodies.

Science now speculates that this control mechanism may be replenished and the human body would go on making new cells to replace the ones that die.

Of course science is looking for the fountain of youth but I wonder if they have stumbled upon the secret of the relationship of the Tree of Life and man before the fall.

The Tree was planted with purpose in the garden, God had told Adam he could eat of all the trees except the Tree of Knowledge of God and Evil. So there was no prohibition for Adam and Eve from eating from the tree pior to the fall. It also was the very reason given by God for driving Adam and Eve from the garden to prevent them for further eating of the tree of life.

It may explain why they had such a long life span which began to diminish with each generation.

A tree by the same name is seen again in the New Jerusalem. A tree with a unique name, The TREE of LIFE. Doesn't sound like a mere apple tree now does it.

So then you believe that God is unable to create sickness-free bodies and if Adam and Eve had not sinned then they still could have gotten sick and died if they never ate from the tree of life. Ah, but what will we ever do with Romans 5:12?

Also, you have misquoted a Scripture:

• Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure'; (Isa. 46:10)

I see this Scripture misquoted so often by those who believe that God is outside of time and has exhaustive foreknowledge of every single future act.

[Justaned]

Here is my position:

I do not believe God ever wanted or planned sickness to come into the universe. It is all due to the fact that Adam brought death through sin into the world (Rom. 5:12).

There is problem with your position on sickness, human physiology. The human body was contructed to fight invasion of foreign bodies, be they splinters, germs or other microbes. White blood cells by design isolate foreign bodies the enter our body. Then there is the whole world of antibodies and other microbe fighters we have in our bodies.

God designed this defensive mechanism into us.

Why?

Because he never planned for sickness?

I don't think so. God knows the beginning and the end. God saw man sick before man was created.

We also know that cells by design die and are replaced, science has also discovered that there is a chronosome within our body that controls this and that, that control mechanism gets depleted with every cell division and eventually fails to replace normal dying cells with new ones. This allows disease and other factors to enter our bodies.

Science now speculates that this control mechanism may be replenished and the human body would go on making new cells to replace the ones that die.

Of course science is looking for the fountain of youth but I wonder if they have stumbled upon the secret of the relationship of the Tree of Life and man before the fall.

The Tree was planted with purpose in the garden, God had told Adam he could eat of all the trees except the Tree of Knowledge of God and Evil. So there was no prohibition for Adam and Eve from eating from the tree pior to the fall. It also was the very reason given by God for driving Adam and Eve from the garden to prevent them for further eating of the tree of life.

It may explain why they had such a long life span which began to diminish with each generation.

A tree by the same name is seen again in the New Jerusalem. A tree with a unique name, The TREE of LIFE. Doesn't sound like a mere apple tree now does it.

So then you believe that God is unable to create sickness-free bodies and if Adam and Eve had not sinned then they still could have gotten sick and died if they never ate from the tree of life. Ah, but what will we ever do with Romans 5:12?

Also, you have misquoted a Scripture:

• Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure'; (Isa. 46:10)

I see this Scripture misquoted so often by those who believe that God is outside of time and has exhaustive foreknowledge of every single future act.

If God created time do you not believe God is master of time?
God transcends time as proven 2 Peter 3:8 (NKJV)
8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

God knew us (not just knew of us but KNEW us) before the foundations of the world were laid.

I think disease as we know it caused by sin but I believe the mechanism in our bodies to fight the bodies invaders was created in us at creation. Most bacteria, germs, viruses are beneficial but need to be controlled. God designed that control process in our bodies and apparently it needed to be replenished and I suspect that replenishment was designed to come from the Tree of Life. However because of the sin God realized man could no longer live forever in this body and would be required to die and given an immortal body. As sin corruptted the world it also corruptted the natural process of things and soon disease was known.

[victoryword]

If God created time do you not believe God is master of time?
God transcends time as proven 2 Peter 3:8 (NKJV)
8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

God knew us (not just knew of us but KNEW us) before the foundations of the world were laid.

I think disease as we know it caused by sin but I believe the mechanism in our bodies to fight the bodies invaders was created in us at creation. Most bacteria, germs, viruses are beneficial but need to be controlled. God designed that control process in our bodies and apparently it needed to be replenished and I suspect that replenishment was designed to come from the Tree of Life. However because of the sin God realized man could no longer live forever in this body and would be required to die and given an immortal body. As sin corruptted the world it also corruptted the natural process of things and soon disease was known.

If you mean that God created night and day concerning the earth, in that sense He did create what we know as "time". However, even in creating "time" God had to have experienced sequential moments as is evident from Genesis chapter one in which it is always said that He did certain acts of restoration on specific days and then on the seventh day He rested. This means that God has to experience subsequent moments and has to have new thoughts and acts that were never done before. Therefore He cannot be static and outside of time. This is a teaching of secular Greek philosophy that later found its way into the church.

An excellent book dealing with this is "The Nature and Character of God" by Winkey Pratney. Also Dake (who actually first introduced me to this thought back in the early 90s) has a good explanation on foreknowledge in his GPFM book (though I wished that he had expounded on it more).

I think an omniscient unlimited God can know all of the children He wanted to bring into the world without necessarily having to know every single aspect of their future existence.

[Justaned]

If time holds reins upon God then it is time that is God and not God.
By definition God can not be controlled.
God can and does see the past, the present and the future as he chooses.

Think for moment, when God speaks through a prophet and tells of the something in the future and it later comes to fruition is it because, God is good guesser? God is lucky? God manipulated man and events to make it come to fruition? Or was it because God saw the future as the present and knew what was going to happen and with the foreknowledge was able to incorporate it all into his overall plan?

[victoryword]

If time holds reins upon God then it is time that is God and not God.
By definition God can not be controlled.
God can and does see the past, the present and the future as he chooses.

Think for moment, when God speaks through a prophet and tells of the something in the future and it later comes to fruition is it because, God is good guesser? God is lucky? God manipulated man and events to make it come to fruition? Or was it because God saw the future as the present and knew what was going to happen and with the foreknowledge was able to incorporate it all into his overall plan?

I will probably start another thread on this where we can debate this subject specifically. Let me just say right now that I agree with you that God cannot be controlled, but He Himself has said that He can be limited (Psalm 78:41).

[titus213]

As to God and time... What if time is not separate from God? Are there any scriptures that proving that God is separate from time? It has been said by some that "aionios" (often translated "for ever and ever" or "everlasting") is another Greek name for God.

Good solid believers have honest disagreements on the issue of time. I took theology courses in grad school from some very excellent, godly Reformed professors who had in-house debates about this (J.O. Buswell who felt God was not separate from time, and on the other side J. Barton Payne who felt he was). So I'm not so sure we can prove it from Scripture.

For me, though, part of the solution may have to do with one's definition of "time". If time isn't thought of as a substance but a way of measuring relationships of finite existence, then it would seem that we'd have to say it came into being with the creation of our finite existence. Time would be included among the "all things" which "were made through Him" (John 1.3). If time is a measurement of durations of events in the finite world, then God is separate from it (seems to me) because He inhabits eternity (Isaiah 57.17) and is "the eternal God" (Gen 21.33). He is infinite in relation to time, without beginning or end. He would be the cause of time.

The Greek word "aionios" is an adjective, not a noun. I don't see how it could be used as another "name" for God or anything else.