Dake Bible Discussion BoardEternal Security

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olindquist
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Re: Eternal Security

Postby olindquist » Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:57 pm

No Jesus is not in the business of calling sinners into the ministry. It breaks his heart just like it did concerning Judas and just like it will at the judgment day with the many. This has been my point which is important.

Have you not heard of ministers that had healing/deliverance ministries that testified of them being in known sin (usually adultery which is one of the death penalty sins and thus from dakes definition they would be lost at that moment) and yet miracles and deliverance were still taking place.

Miracles are not the sign of salvation but relationship and the fruit of Mat 5-7.

I know we differ and should both let this go. I was trying to be respectful in answering your questions. Thanks for your responses it has been heated at times but helpful.



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bibleman
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Re: Eternal Security

Postby bibleman » Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:35 pm

olindquist wrote:No Jesus is not in the business of calling sinners into the ministry. It breaks his heart just like it did concerning Judas and just like it will at the judgment day with the many. This has been my point which is important.

Have you not heard of ministers that had healing/deliverance ministries that testified of them being in known sin (usually adultery which is one of the death penalty sins and thus from dakes definition they would be lost at that moment) and yet miracles and deliverance were still taking place.

Miracles are not the sign of salvation but relationship and the fruit of Mat 5-7.

I know we differ and should both let this go. I was trying to be respectful in answering your questions. Thanks for your responses it has been heated at times but helpful.


But what you are saying is Judas was never saved. So your example of ministers falling into sin does not apply.

What minister could you point to in the last 100 years that was a sinner and Jesus anointed them to preach heal and cast out devil, and they did it and were not saved?


God bless
Leon Bible

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The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

olindquist
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Re: Eternal Security

Postby olindquist » Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:07 pm

Bibleman said,
But what you are saying is Judas was never saved. So your example of ministers falling into sin does not apply.

If a minister commits a death penalty sin and doesn't repent he is lost so what difference does it make? Our discussion was around whether a sinner can preach, heal, and deliver.

What minister could you point to in the last 100 years that was a sinner and Jesus anointed them to preach heal and cast out devil, and they did it and were not saved?[/quote]

Benny Hinn admitted that the Lord told him he would have gone to hell if he had not repented and yet miracles were still happening.
Todd Bentley was in adultery and I believe was still experiencing powerful miracles, deliverance, etc. but was not saved being in sin.

You may respond by saying,

1) It was not the anointing of the Holy Spirit - that could border on blasphemy.

2) The miracles were not real - that would be denying the facts.

3) They were not saved - then your whole argument would be proven false.

All doctrine sounds good but is it sound?



olindquist
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Re: Eternal Security

Postby olindquist » Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:46 pm

Hopefully no offense was taken on my statement about doctrine. I just don't believe we should use miracles as a sign of salvation.
I was reluctant to use those 2 examples. From what I can see God has done a wonderful work in both of their lives and ministries. Glory to His Name! I would never do it to exposed anyone but because they were openly transparent and gave the testimony of God's redemptive work I used those 2 examples. I have great respect for you Leon (I believe that is your name), your faithfulness to this forum, and your wisdom. I can be outspoken with my views. I will continue to take to heart yours and others comments and pearls of wisdom.



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bibleman
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Re: Eternal Security

Postby bibleman » Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:55 pm

olindquist wrote:Bibleman said,
But what you are saying is Judas was never saved. So your example of ministers falling into sin does not apply.

If a minister commits a death penalty sin and doesn't repent he is lost so what difference does it make? Our discussion was around whether a sinner can preach, heal, and deliver.

What minister could you point to in the last 100 years that was a sinner and Jesus anointed them to preach heal and cast out devil, and they did it and were not saved?


Benny Hinn admitted that the Lord told him he would have gone to hell if he had not repented and yet miracles were still happening.
Todd Bentley was in adultery and I believe was still experiencing powerful miracles, deliverance, etc. but was not saved being in sin.

You may respond by saying,

1) It was not the anointing of the Holy Spirit - that could border on blasphemy.

2) The miracles were not real - that would be denying the facts.

3) They were not saved - then your whole argument would be proven false.

All doctrine sounds good but is it sound?[/quote]

NEITHER of those minister were sinners when God called them to preach and anointed them for miracle ministry.

SO - do you have any sinners as you said that God called and anointed for miracle ministry WITHOUT them being saved (as you falsely claim Judas was not)


God bless
Leon Bible

http://www.ministryhelps.com
http://www.dakebible.com
http://www.dakebibleboard.com
https://www.facebook.com/groups/DakeBibleDiscussion/

The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

olindquist
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Re: Eternal Security

Postby olindquist » Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:05 pm

I have done my best to answer all your questions. Here is the grind: I believe in Mat. 7:22 they were telling the truth(and I have very clearly given my reasons why) and you believe they were lying. Jesus said He never knew them . If my interpretation is right that they were indeed doing all those things where else did the anointing come except by faith in the name of Jesus as Peter stated in Acts 3? If Jesus said He never knew them and He doesn't mince words than they were never saved. So why try to bring up a present day minister. It says many in v. 22, is that not sufficient enough? The reason of preaching, miracles, and deliverance in Jesus name is not proof to me that Judas or anyone else is saved. There is ample proof that Judas was not saved in John 6 and at the end of Jesus' ministry. I said I am not convinced Judas was ever saved based on your reasoning. He may have been but there is nothing that convinces me that he was. Can we just leave it at that and be ok to disagree?

If you do not believe those in Mat. 7:22 were telling the truth and I believe they were, we have to leave it at that and take it to the Holy Spirit.

Don't feel the need you have to respond to my questions, it was just food for thought.



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Ironman
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Re: Eternal Security

Postby Ironman » Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:10 pm

olindquist wrote:I have done my best to answer all your questions. Here is the grind: I believe in Mat. 7:22 they were telling the truth(and I have very clearly given my reasons why) and you believe they were lying. Jesus said He never knew them . If my interpretation is right that they were indeed doing all those things where else did the anointing come except by faith in the name of Jesus as Peter stated in Acts 3? If Jesus said He never knew them and He doesn't mince words than they were never saved. So why try to bring up a present day minister. It says many in v. 22, is that not sufficient enough? The reason of preaching, miracles, and deliverance in Jesus name is not proof to me that Judas or anyone else is saved. There is ample proof that Judas was not saved in John 6 and at the end of Jesus' ministry. I said I am not convinced Judas was ever saved based on your reasoning. He may have been but there is nothing that convinces me that he was. Can we just leave it at that and be ok to disagree?

If you do not believe those in Mat. 7:22 were telling the truth and I believe they were, we have to leave it at that and take it to the Holy Spirit.

Don't feel the need you have to respond to my questions, it was just food for thought.


In case you missed my post regarding Matthew 7:22.

olindquist wrote:
[

If those in Mat:7:22-23 were indeed telling the truth (and I see no reason to believe otherwise) then your theory is probably wrong. They said three times "In your name" and Jesus did not deny what they said. He said "I Never knew you!" not at one time I knew you. I think you are making your assumption on one little statement that Dake said in the annotated bible that could have possibly happened. But unlikely.


Many said they did these things, "have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?"

No where is it recorded in Scripture to show they actually did the things they said they did. And Jesus would have known this, or He would not have said what He said.

For example, I'm saved, baptized, born again, believe in Jesus and the Father who sent Him. If I said to you and others to impress you and others listening, "I raised several people from the dead," would you believe me? If I said to Jesus I have raised people from the dead, would He believe me? No He would not for He would know I was lying, and because of this lie, I would be fallen from grace and salvation, and Jesus would say, "He does not know me . . . . . . anymore."
Last edited by Ironman on Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.


Have I become your enemy, because I tell you the truth.

I'll be a fool for truth's sake. Truth is fallen in the street. I wont pass it by. I'll pick it up and embrace it regardless of the costs.

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bibleman
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Re: Eternal Security

Postby bibleman » Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:17 pm

olindquist wrote:I have done my best to answer all your questions. Here is the grind: I believe in Mat. 7:22 they were telling the truth(and I have very clearly given my reasons why) and you believe they were lying. Jesus said He never knew them . If my interpretation is right that they were indeed doing all those things where else did the anointing come except by faith in the name of Jesus as Peter stated in Acts 3? If Jesus said He never knew them and He doesn't mince words than they were never saved. So why try to bring up a present day minister. It says many in v. 22, is that not sufficient enough? The reason of preaching, miracles, and deliverance in Jesus name is not proof to me that Judas or anyone else is saved. There is ample proof that Judas was not saved in John 6 and at the end of Jesus' ministry. I said I am not convinced Judas was ever saved based on your reasoning. He may have been but there is nothing that convinces me that he was. Can we just leave it at that and be ok to disagree?

If you do not believe those in Mat. 7:22 were telling the truth and I believe they were, we have to leave it at that and take it to the Holy Spirit.

Don't feel the need you have to respond to my questions, it was just food for thought.


So if I understand you. You have no examples in the last 100 years?


God bless
Leon Bible

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The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

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Ironman
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Re: Eternal Security

Postby Ironman » Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:00 pm

Many said they did these things, "have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?"

No where is it recorded in Scripture to show they actually did the things they said they did. And Jesus would have known this, or He would not have said what He said.

They said these things trying to escape Hell. They were lier's, they were not saved.


Have I become your enemy, because I tell you the truth.

I'll be a fool for truth's sake. Truth is fallen in the street. I wont pass it by. I'll pick it up and embrace it regardless of the costs.

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Re: Eternal Security

Postby bibleman » Sat Aug 19, 2017 10:47 am

Ironman wrote:Many said they did these things, "have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?"

No where is it recorded in Scripture to show they actually did the things they said they did. And Jesus would have known this, or He would not have said what He said.

They said these things trying to escape Hell. They were lier's, they were not saved.


It is so plain and simple it is hard to see how anyone could miss it... that is unless they already had their mind made up before the discussion.


God bless
Leon Bible

http://www.ministryhelps.com
http://www.dakebible.com
http://www.dakebibleboard.com
https://www.facebook.com/groups/DakeBibleDiscussion/

The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note


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