Dake Bible Discussion BoardEternal Security

General Discussion Forum devoted to the study of God's Word in Honor of Finis J. Dake.
User avatar
bibleman
Administrator
Posts: 2474
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 1998 5:23 pm
Location: South Carolina
Contact:

Re: Eternal Security

Postby bibleman » Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:46 pm

olindquist wrote:
bibleman wrote:
Let me please ask you this question....

Do you believe that a truly, for real, born again Christian can sin away his relationship with God by committing murder..

That is if a Christian who murders his wife - will he for the act of that murder become lost again and lose his salvation?


Yes, I believe he would lose his salvation without confession and repentance.


OK agreed!

So then why is it so hard for you to believe that Judas was saved and then lost his salvation?


God bless
Leon Bible

http://www.ministryhelps.com
http://www.dakebible.com
http://www.dakebibleboard.com
https://www.facebook.com/groups/DakeBibleDiscussion/

The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

olindquist
Wrestle Not Against Flesh and Blood
Posts: 93
Joined: Thu May 11, 2017 11:10 am

Re: Eternal Security

Postby olindquist » Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:09 am

bibleman wrote:
olindquist wrote:
bibleman wrote:
Let me please ask you this question....

Do you believe that a truly, for real, born again Christian can sin away his relationship with God by committing murder..

That is if a Christian who murders his wife - will he for the act of that murder become lost again and lose his salvation?


Yes, I believe he would lose his salvation without confession and repentance.


OK agreed!

So then why is it so hard for you to believe that Judas was saved and then lost his salvation?


I don't see any Scriptural evidence of Judas ever being saved.

I have a question for you which is off the subject of Judas. My following question I posed before and you asked what difference does it make.

Do you believe that it is possible for a christian (especially a new believer) to commit one of the death penalty sins and not realize that it was even a sin?



User avatar
bibleman
Administrator
Posts: 2474
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 1998 5:23 pm
Location: South Carolina
Contact:

Re: Eternal Security

Postby bibleman » Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:07 am

olindquist wrote:
bibleman wrote:
olindquist wrote:
bibleman wrote:
Let me please ask you this question....

Do you believe that a truly, for real, born again Christian can sin away his relationship with God by committing murder..

That is if a Christian who murders his wife - will he for the act of that murder become lost again and lose his salvation?


Yes, I believe he would lose his salvation without confession and repentance.


OK agreed!

So then why is it so hard for you to believe that Judas was saved and then lost his salvation?


I don't see any Scriptural evidence of Judas ever being saved.

I have a question for you which is off the subject of Judas. My following question I posed before and you asked what difference does it make.

Do you believe that it is possible for a christian (especially a new believer) to commit one of the death penalty sins and not realize that it was even a sin?


Hi,

You said: "I don't see any Scriptural evidence of Judas ever being saved."

If healing the sick, preaching the Gospel and casting out devils is not evidence - Then you will never be convinced of the truth.

You asked: "Do you believe that it is possible for a christian (especially a new believer) to commit one of the death penalty sins and not realize that it was even a sin?"

No I don't think that it is possible. The Holy Spirit reproves the world of sin. "And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin," John 16:8

And even if it were the death penalty is still the same. The wages of sin is death! Romans 6:23 does not say the wages of sin is death ONLY for those who know about it.

Let's say I move to England and kill someone. My defense is I didn't know murder was against the law. According to your thinking the English Authorities would just say to me OH! that is OK - you didn't know. That is fine go on your merry way - we will not hold you... Have a nice day.

Now you know that would never happy that way...


God bless
Leon Bible

http://www.ministryhelps.com
http://www.dakebible.com
http://www.dakebibleboard.com
https://www.facebook.com/groups/DakeBibleDiscussion/

The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

olindquist
Wrestle Not Against Flesh and Blood
Posts: 93
Joined: Thu May 11, 2017 11:10 am

Re: Eternal Security

Postby olindquist » Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:36 am

Bibleman said,

If healing the sick, preaching the Gospel and casting out devils is not evidence - Then you will never be convinced of the truth.

I could use that same argument for you not believing Mat. 7:22-23 to be true.

I respect the difference of opinion of you and others on this subject.

And even if it were the death penalty is still the same. The wages of sin is death! Romans 6:23 does not say the wages of sin is death ONLY for those who know about it.

That is a great point. Not that I am disagreeing but what about the scripture Jesus said

In John 15:22 "If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin..."



User avatar
bibleman
Administrator
Posts: 2474
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 1998 5:23 pm
Location: South Carolina
Contact:

Re: Eternal Security

Postby bibleman » Fri Aug 18, 2017 11:34 am

olindquist wrote:Bibleman said,

If healing the sick, preaching the Gospel and casting out devils is not evidence - Then you will never be convinced of the truth.

I could use that same argument for you not believing Mat. 7:22-23 to be true.

I respect the difference of opinion of you and others on this subject.

And even if it were the death penalty is still the same. The wages of sin is death! Romans 6:23 does not say the wages of sin is death ONLY for those who know about it.

That is a great point. Not that I am disagreeing but what about the scripture Jesus said

In John 15:22 "If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin..."


Your Mark 7:22-23 NEVER says they cast out devils - is said they would
"say" they did.

In context the very next verse gives the teaching of Jesus concerning those who "say and do" and those who "say and do not!"

Matthew 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. (KJV)

How could Jesus have made it any plainer!

As to your comment In John 15:22 "If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin..."[/quote]

John 15:23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.
24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father. (KJV)

This was the specific sin of the rejection of Jesus NOT all sin (such as murder, adultery and etc.


God bless
Leon Bible

http://www.ministryhelps.com
http://www.dakebible.com
http://www.dakebibleboard.com
https://www.facebook.com/groups/DakeBibleDiscussion/

The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

olindquist
Wrestle Not Against Flesh and Blood
Posts: 93
Joined: Thu May 11, 2017 11:10 am

Re: Eternal Security

Postby olindquist » Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:17 pm

I believe we are getting to the heart of our difference in interpretation with Mat 7:22-23. You think the context of verses 24-27 has to do with proving that the many in v. 22 really didn't do those 3 things they said but were just saying they did.

Here is my interpretation of verses 24-27. Chapter 7 is a carry over from 5 and 6. Beatitudes, seeking first the kingdom of God and His righteousness (or way of doing things) and then in 7:15 he warns of false prophets and says you will know them by their fruits NOT JUST MIRACLES, SIGNS, AND WONDERS.

Judas was entrusted with delegated authority(power) and the money bag but his heart was never really with Jesus. There is power in the name of Jesus. Peter in Acts 3 said it was not our power or holiness that made this man whole but faith in the name of Jesus.

I think you believe I think Judas went around saying in the name of satan I cast you devils out. Yes that would be a divided kingdom and satan trying to cast out satan which would not work. But in the name of Jesus would because of delegated authority.



User avatar
bibleman
Administrator
Posts: 2474
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 1998 5:23 pm
Location: South Carolina
Contact:

Re: Eternal Security

Postby bibleman » Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:28 pm

olindquist wrote:I believe we are getting to the heart of our difference in interpretation with Mat 7:22-23. You think the context of verses 24-27 has to do with proving that the many in v. 22 really didn't do those 3 things they said but were just saying they did.

Here is my interpretation of verses 24-27. Chapter 7 is a carry over from 5 and 6. Beatitudes, seeking first the kingdom of God and His righteousness (or way of doing things) and then in 7:15 he warns of false prophets and says you will know them by their fruits NOT JUST MIRACLES, SIGNS, AND WONDERS.

Judas was entrusted with delegated authority(power) and the money bag but his heart was never really with Jesus. There is power in the name of Jesus. Peter in Acts 3 said it was not our power or holiness that made this man whole but faith in the name of Jesus.

I think you believe I think Judas went around saying in the name of satan I cast you devils out. Yes that would be a divided kingdom and satan trying to cast out satan which would not work. But in the name of Jesus would because of delegated authority.


To get your way of thinking you must believe that Jesus on purpose picked a sinner (Judas):

to preach the Gospel... and he actually preached it...
to heal the sick... and he actually healed the sick...
to cast out devils... and he actually cast out devils...

Question??? Do you know of any other sinners that Jesus has chosen and empowered to preach the Gospel? Or is Judas the only one?


God bless
Leon Bible

http://www.ministryhelps.com
http://www.dakebible.com
http://www.dakebibleboard.com
https://www.facebook.com/groups/DakeBibleDiscussion/

The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

olindquist
Wrestle Not Against Flesh and Blood
Posts: 93
Joined: Thu May 11, 2017 11:10 am

Re: Eternal Security

Postby olindquist » Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:50 pm

Yes the ones in Mat 7:22-23



olindquist
Wrestle Not Against Flesh and Blood
Posts: 93
Joined: Thu May 11, 2017 11:10 am

Re: Eternal Security

Postby olindquist » Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:21 pm

Let me clarify my last response so it doesn't seem like I was being sarcastic. The gifts and callings of God are without repentance. It seems to me from Mat 7:22-23 and personal observation that there are many people who are called into some type of ministry that are doing miracles in Jesus' name that are not saved.



User avatar
bibleman
Administrator
Posts: 2474
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 1998 5:23 pm
Location: South Carolina
Contact:

Re: Eternal Security

Postby bibleman » Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:44 pm

olindquist wrote:Let me clarify my last response so it doesn't seem like I was being sarcastic. The gifts and callings of God are without repentance. It seems to me from Mat 7:22-23 and personal observation that there are many people who are called into some type of ministry that are doing miracles in Jesus' name that are not saved.


If Jesus is in the business of calling sinners to heal the sick, cast out devils and preach the Gospel.... then I don't have the slightest clue who Jesus is!

You know - you seem to have your mind made up and it seems no amount of Biblical evidence will change that.


God bless
Leon Bible

http://www.ministryhelps.com
http://www.dakebible.com
http://www.dakebibleboard.com
https://www.facebook.com/groups/DakeBibleDiscussion/

The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note


Return to “Dake Bible Discussion Board”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests