Dake Bible Discussion BoardBelieve ONLY and be saved? Anderson? Swaggart?

General Discussion Forum devoted to the study of God's Word in Honor of Finis J. Dake.
titus213
The Lord Hath Laid Upon Christ the Iniquity of Us All
Posts: 1090
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:45 pm

Re: Believe ONLY and be saved? Anderson? Swaggart?

Postby titus213 » Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:12 am

The old hymn says:

Rock of Ages, cleft for me,
let me hide myself in thee;
let the water and the blood,
from thy wounded side which flowed,
be of sin the double cure;
save from wrath and make me pure.


Grace provides the "double cure" for our double trouble. It saves from wrath because Jesus paid the penalty for ALL sin (Romans 1-5) and grace enables us to finally be able to obey God (Romans 6-8).

The problem with the hyper-grace people is that they ignore the 2nd part of the double cure, or at least distort it. But the response to their errors shouldn't be to distort the 1st part of the double cure. Either Jesus paid it all, or He didn't and we're stuck with having to pay for some. Either He took away the sin of the world, or He didn't, and plenty of it is still left un-atoned for.

We don't magnify Romans 6-8 by denigrating Romans 1-5.



User avatar
bibleman
Administrator
Posts: 2472
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 1998 5:23 pm
Location: South Carolina
Contact:

Re: Believe ONLY and be saved? Anderson? Swaggart?

Postby bibleman » Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:41 am

titus213 wrote:The old hymn says:

Rock of Ages, cleft for me,
let me hide myself in thee;
let the water and the blood,
from thy wounded side which flowed,
be of sin the double cure;
save from wrath and make me pure.


Grace provides the "double cure" for our double trouble. It saves from wrath because Jesus paid the penalty for ALL sin (Romans 1-5) and grace enables us to finally be able to obey God (Romans 6-8).

The problem with the hyper-grace people is that they ignore the 2nd part of the double cure, or at least distort it. But the response to their errors shouldn't be to distort the 1st part of the double cure. Either Jesus paid it all, or He didn't and we're stuck with having to pay for some. Either He took away the sin of the world, or He didn't, and plenty of it is still left un-atoned for.

We don't magnify Romans 6-8 by denigrating Romans 1-5.


HUM... just wondering here...

Above you said: " Either Jesus paid it all, or He didn't and we're stuck with having to pay for some. Either He took away the sin of the world, or He didn't, and plenty of it is still left un-atoned for."

What part of sin is "left un-atoned for?"


God bless
Leon Bible

http://www.ministryhelps.com
http://www.dakebible.com
http://www.dakebibleboard.com
https://www.facebook.com/groups/DakeBibleDiscussion/

The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

stand
1 John
Posts: 62
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 9:13 pm

Re: Believe ONLY and be saved? Anderson? Swaggart?

Postby stand » Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:07 am

The devil always tries to make simple thing complicated and twists the truth. The information in the video is straight from the scripture and I agree with that. Roman 10:9 is always about a state of a continuous process, not confess and believe one second and be saved even if the person deny and unbelieve later. Whenever people confess, which is obedient to Jesus, and believe with their heart, they have relationship with God and are saved. Once they are disobedient and/or unbelieve, they have no relationship with God and are unsaved. To me this is very simple and is straight from the Bible.



User avatar
bibleman
Administrator
Posts: 2472
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 1998 5:23 pm
Location: South Carolina
Contact:

Re: Believe ONLY and be saved? Anderson? Swaggart?

Postby bibleman » Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:12 am

Doc wrote:Well...here's the thing. I think what the kid is saying on the video is heartfelt, and I think he is simply trying to promote holiness, except those of us who are brought up in salvation in the holiness traditions, would approach it from a different scriptural perspective.
Romans 10:9 (AMP) - "Because if you acknowledge and confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and in your heart believe (adhere to, trust in, and rely on the truth) that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."

Note in the AMP translation how it builds in the interpretation from the original language what it means to BELIEVE. Herein lies the rub. The admonition from Paul is correct here. It is all and everything we need to do to initiate salvation. Is it enough to live holy and proper lives pleasing to God? Not really, unless we sincerely adhere to, trust in, and rely on Jesus.
Belief in Jesus is more than my belief in say, George Washington. The scripture says I must believe in not only who Jesus is, but also what God has done in Him for the benefit of the human race.

The young man quoted a lot from Jesus when He was alive, and it is all great truth, but it's pre death and resurrection. It is a lot of legal pre NT John the Baptist Law. It's a very heavily works laden teaching. Once Jesus went to the cross, even the OT saints who had been awaiting their release from Hades finally were set free by the Blood of Christ.

What I ACTUALLY need to do is simply believe (adhere to, rely on, trust in) Jesus Christ. I don't find what this kid is teaching to be what Dake taught. I find Dake to be a classic holiness teacher. I'm sure he got that from his years with the Church of God.

In watching the video I was not inspired. I felt more indoctrinated into a more legal and carnal way of trying to receive what has indeed been freely given to the world through the Cross of Christ. Once we are born again, then we can begin to renew our way of thinking and begin the journey (Romans 12) toward the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, known more prominently by the old timers as "second blessing holiness". The Baptism in the Holy Spirit is far more than just speaking in tongues, and while I believe in and appreciate that Pentecostal tradition and biblical truth, I also appreciate my holiness roots as well. Heart purity is the ultimate goal.

My two cents anyway.

Doc


Thanks for your input - I hear your heart and mostly agree. I would add the word "obey" to "(adhere to, rely on, trust in) Jesus Christ."

And as to Dake's influence by the Church of God... Well Dake was only affiliated with the Church of God for about 6 years (1942-1948) so his influence from them was not begun until he was about 40 years old. But I would not expect everyone to know that, many people associate Dake with the Church of God much more than it actually was, so no problem there.

But that be as it may....

"The young man quoted a lot from Jesus when He was alive, and it is all great truth, but it's pre death and resurrection. It is a lot of legal pre NT John the Baptist Law. It's a very heavily works laden teaching. Once Jesus went to the cross, even the OT saints who had been awaiting their release from Hades finally were set free by the Blood of Christ."

How do we reconcile that statement with Jesus words?

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


1) Does Jesus not tell us here (after the cross) to TEACH believers "all things whatsoever I have commanded you:"

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

2) Was Jesus wrong to tell us to Keep HIS words?

3) What words of Jesus are we NOT to keep today?


God bless
Leon Bible

http://www.ministryhelps.com
http://www.dakebible.com
http://www.dakebibleboard.com
https://www.facebook.com/groups/DakeBibleDiscussion/

The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

titus213
The Lord Hath Laid Upon Christ the Iniquity of Us All
Posts: 1090
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:45 pm

Re: Believe ONLY and be saved? Anderson? Swaggart?

Postby titus213 » Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:16 am

None of it. That's my point.
bibleman wrote:
HUM... just wondering here...

Above you said: " Either Jesus paid it all, or He didn't and we're stuck with having to pay for some. Either He took away the sin of the world, or He didn't, and plenty of it is still left un-atoned for."

What part of sin is "left un-atoned for?"



User avatar
bibleman
Administrator
Posts: 2472
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 1998 5:23 pm
Location: South Carolina
Contact:

Re: Believe ONLY and be saved? Anderson? Swaggart?

Postby bibleman » Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:18 am

titus213 wrote:None of it. That's my point.
bibleman wrote:
HUM... just wondering here...

Above you said: " Either Jesus paid it all, or He didn't and we're stuck with having to pay for some. Either He took away the sin of the world, or He didn't, and plenty of it is still left un-atoned for."

What part of sin is "left un-atoned for?"


:angel:


God bless
Leon Bible

http://www.ministryhelps.com
http://www.dakebible.com
http://www.dakebibleboard.com
https://www.facebook.com/groups/DakeBibleDiscussion/

The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

User avatar
luchnia
The Voice of the Lord Divideth the Flames of Fire
Posts: 415
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2014 6:01 am

Re: Believe ONLY and be saved? Anderson? Swaggart?

Postby luchnia » Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:26 pm

bibleman wrote:
titus213 wrote:None of it. That's my point.
bibleman wrote:
HUM... just wondering here...

Above you said: " Either Jesus paid it all, or He didn't and we're stuck with having to pay for some. Either He took away the sin of the world, or He didn't, and plenty of it is still left un-atoned for."

What part of sin is "left un-atoned for?"


:angel:

:angel:
This brings the responsibility in man's court and not God's. There are some out there that believe since Jesus took away the sin of the world, there is nothing they can do one way or the other. I think it is universalist that believe that what He did suffices and there is nothing for them to do. They tend to forget the repent and forsake sin part of God's word. They can go sin like the devil and call it a day because Jesus paid it all.

We have to use caution as to how we present take away the sin of the world. What did He do with it and how can people still sin if sin is gone? What did He take away? What did He pay for? I am sure we know the answers, but others may have a different take on what that means.


Word up!

User avatar
branham1965
Little Children, Let No Man Deceive You: He that Doeth Righteousness is Righteous, Even as He is Righteous
Posts: 4895
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:18 am

Re: Believe ONLY and be saved? Anderson? Swaggart?

Postby branham1965 » Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:06 pm

amen Pastor Bible.


" If any man teach otherwise,and consent not to wholesome words even the WORDS OF OUR THE LORD JESUS CHRIST,and to the doctrine which is according to godliness...1 Timothy 6:3

"If ye abide of me, and my WORDS abide in you,ye shall ask what ye will and it shall be done unto you." John 12:48

"Now ye are clean through the WORD which i have spoken unto you." John 15:3

" He that rejecteth me ,and receiveth not my WORDS ,hath one that judgeth him;the WORD that i have spoken ,the same shall judge him in the last day."


bibleman wrote:
Doc wrote:Well...here's the thing. I think what the kid is saying on the video is heartfelt, and I think he is simply trying to promote holiness, except those of us who are brought up in salvation in the holiness traditions, would approach it from a different scriptural perspective.
Romans 10:9 (AMP) - "Because if you acknowledge and confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and in your heart believe (adhere to, trust in, and rely on the truth) that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."

Note in the AMP translation how it builds in the interpretation from the original language what it means to BELIEVE. Herein lies the rub. The admonition from Paul is correct here. It is all and everything we need to do to initiate salvation. Is it enough to live holy and proper lives pleasing to God? Not really, unless we sincerely adhere to, trust in, and rely on Jesus.
Belief in Jesus is more than my belief in say, George Washington. The scripture says I must believe in not only who Jesus is, but also what God has done in Him for the benefit of the human race.

The young man quoted a lot from Jesus when He was alive, and it is all great truth, but it's pre death and resurrection. It is a lot of legal pre NT John the Baptist Law. It's a very heavily works laden teaching. Once Jesus went to the cross, even the OT saints who had been awaiting their release from Hades finally were set free by the Blood of Christ.

What I ACTUALLY need to do is simply believe (adhere to, rely on, trust in) Jesus Christ. I don't find what this kid is teaching to be what Dake taught. I find Dake to be a classic holiness teacher. I'm sure he got that from his years with the Church of God.

In watching the video I was not inspired. I felt more indoctrinated into a more legal and carnal way of trying to receive what has indeed been freely given to the world through the Cross of Christ. Once we are born again, then we can begin to renew our way of thinking and begin the journey (Romans 12) toward the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, known more prominently by the old timers as "second blessing holiness". The Baptism in the Holy Spirit is far more than just speaking in tongues, and while I believe in and appreciate that Pentecostal tradition and biblical truth, I also appreciate my holiness roots as well. Heart purity is the ultimate goal.

My two cents anyway.

Doc


Thanks for your input - I hear your heart and mostly agree. I would add the word "obey" to "(adhere to, rely on, trust in) Jesus Christ."

And as to Dake's influence by the Church of God... Well Dake was only affiliated with the Church of God for about 6 years (1942-1948) so his influence from them was not begun until he was about 40 years old. But I would not expect everyone to know that, many people associate Dake with the Church of God much more than it actually was, so no problem there.

But that be as it may....

"The young man quoted a lot from Jesus when He was alive, and it is all great truth, but it's pre death and resurrection. It is a lot of legal pre NT John the Baptist Law. It's a very heavily works laden teaching. Once Jesus went to the cross, even the OT saints who had been awaiting their release from Hades finally were set free by the Blood of Christ."

How do we reconcile that statement with Jesus words?

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


1) Does Jesus not tell us here (after the cross) to TEACH believers "all things whatsoever I have commanded you:"

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

2) Was Jesus wrong to tell us to Keep HIS words?

3) What words of Jesus are we NOT to keep today?



User avatar
Spiritblade Disciple
Little Children, Let No Man Deceive You: He that Doeth Righteousness is Righteous, Even as He is Righteous
Posts: 3429
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2004 6:27 pm

Re: Believe ONLY and be saved? Anderson? Swaggart?

Postby Spiritblade Disciple » Wed Apr 26, 2017 6:51 pm

Doc wrote:In watching the video I was not inspired. I felt more indoctrinated into a more legal and carnal way of trying to receive what has indeed been freely given to the world through the Cross of Christ.

I agree with this observation, Doc.



User avatar
Spiritblade Disciple
Little Children, Let No Man Deceive You: He that Doeth Righteousness is Righteous, Even as He is Righteous
Posts: 3429
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2004 6:27 pm

Re: Believe ONLY and be saved? Anderson? Swaggart?

Postby Spiritblade Disciple » Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:13 pm

luchnia wrote:There are some out there that believe since Jesus took away the sin of the world, there is nothing they can do one way or the other. I think it is universalist that believe that what He did suffices and there is nothing for them to do. They tend to forget the repent and forsake sin part of God's word. They can go sin like the devil and call it a day because Jesus paid it all.

We have to use caution as to how we present take away the sin of the world.

You raise a good point about using caution in how it is presented.

Also, having studied a little bit of what some Universalists believe, not all believe "that what He did suffices and there is nothing for them to do." Also, not all of them "tend forget the repent and forsake sin part of God's word." And, not all of them believe "they can go sin like the devil and call it a day because Jesus paid it all."

There seems to be a wide spectrum of beliefs amongst Universalists. Certainly, some of them believe as you describe, but there are some Partialists that fit that description of Universalists you describe, too.




Return to “Dake Bible Discussion Board”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], olindquist and 5 guests