Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Hagin taught that a saved born again person could fall away!

[bibleman]

Brother Hagin taught and Jesus taught that a saved born again person could loose their salvation and go to Hell!

"Lord, what will happen to her?" I asked. "She will spend eternity in the regions of the damned, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth," He answered. And in the vision I saw her go down into the pit. I heard her awful screams. "This woman was your child, Lord. She was filled with your Spirit and had part in the ministry. Yet You said not to pray for her. I cannot understand this!" The Lord reminded me of the following Scripture: "If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it" (1 John 5:16).

I said, "But Lord, I always have believed that the sin referred to in this Scripture is physical death, and that the person is saved although he has sinned."

"But that Scripture doesn't say physical death," the Lord pointed out. "You are adding something to it. If you will read the entire fifth chapter of First John, you will see that it is talking about life and death — spiritual life and spiritual death — and this is spiritual death. This refers to a believer who can sin a sin unto death, and therefore I say that you shall not pray for it. I told you not to pray for this woman because she sinned a sin unto death."

"This really disrupts my theology, Lord. Would you explain some more?" I asked. (Sometimes we need our theology disrupted if it is not in line with the Word.)

Jesus reminded me of the following Scripture:

HEBREWS 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly g i f t, and were made par takers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

"Yes, I know that Scripture, but my denomination said that 'those who were once enlightened' does not refer to Christians — it means lost persons who get under conviction."

The Lord said, "Remember, I told you this woman was my child. She was filled with the Holy Spirit, and she had part in the ministry...."
http://storage.cloversites.com/bushfire ... isions.pdf

[victoryword]

I remember reading that account. He also talks about his brother-in-law in one of his sermons who was saved but later rejected Christ. One day while praying for him the Lord spoke to Hagin and told him not to call this man's name up before Him anymore. Hagin could not understand but the Lord reminded him about the passage in which He told the prophet that Ephraim has clung to his idols. Let him alone.

His brother-in-law died cursing God.

[branham1965]

He taught that.and he said we Baptists teach....


He had a Vision of Jesus.

Gordon Lindsay talks about this woman as well.


ive put it on here numerous times.

im glad Bibleman did.

[Ironman]

Bibleman, you wrote; "If I understand him right then YES both Hagin and according to Hagin... Jesus taught that a fallen away person could not be renewed."

Not saying you believe this, but doesn't that mean that once a saved person returns to sin he has fallen away because sin separates us from God? So if a fallen away person could not be renewed, what happens to repenting? Surely God accepts a repentant sinner back again?

[bibleman]

Bibleman, you wrote; "If I understand him right then YES both Hagin and according to Hagin... Jesus taught that a fallen away person could not be renewed."

Not saying you believe this, but doesn't that mean that once a saved person returns to sin he has fallen away because sin separates us from God? So if a fallen away person could not be renewed, what happens to repenting? Surely God accepts a repentant sinner back again?

Yes I agree, of course a person can be born again more than once.

Can One Be Born Again More Than Once?

Can a man be lost and found more than once? Can a man be saved from drowning more than once? Can a man be saved from any other kind of death more than once?

Fifteen proofs that people can be born again more than once:

1. All people had eternal life in Adam until he sinned. If he had not sinned, all people would have lived forever (Gen. 2:17; Rom. 5:12-21). The new birth of Jn. 3:1-8 is really a rebirth or a restoration to original life by cancellation of the death penalty (Isa. 59:2; Mt. 1:21; Jn. 3:16; Eph. 2:1-9). If this can thus happen once, it can happen again and again if necessary.

2. The gospel teaches forgiveness more than once -- even 490 times (Mt. 18:21-22). Would God command people to do this, if He would not do it Himself?

3. If any believer sins, he has an advocate with the Father (1Jn. 2:1-2). What is this advocate for if not to restore backsliders to God?

4. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us (1Jn. 1:9).

5. Peter was once converted, confessing Jesus as the Son of God and the Christ, which brings the new birth (1Jn. 5:1; Mt. 16:16). He even had power to preach and heal and had the Spirit in him (Mt. 10:1-20). Jesus predicted his backsliding and reconversion (Lk. 22:31-34), proving that a converted man can and must be reconverted if he sins as Peter did in Mt. 26:69-75.

6. James taught a reconversion after one sins and incurs the death penalty again (Jas. 5:19-20).

7. Paul taught that God is able to graft men in again (Rom. 11:18-24).

8. Paul taught that men who have even overthrown the faith of others, can come to repentance again (2Tim. 2:17-26).

9. Paul taught a rebirth again of backsliders (Gal. 4:19), those who had fallen from grace (Gal. 1:6-8; 3:1-5; 4:19; 5:4).

10. Paul taught us to restore a sinning brother (Gal. 6:1). How could this be if it is impossible or unnecessary?

11. In Heb. 6:1 Paul teaches the laying again of the foundation of repentance if necessary. Only apostates cannot be renewed to repentance (Heb. 6:4-9; 10:26-29). The reason is that they have thrown away all faith in the only sacrifice that can renew them. Backsliders who still have faith in Christ can be renewed regardless of how low in sin they are.

12. Jesus taught a reconversion (Rev. 2:4-5,16,21-26; 3:3,15,16).

13. In Lk. 15, Jesus taught us that a sheep, coin, or boy could become lost and found again. It would be illogical to argue they could be lost and found but once, or that, once being found, they could never be lost again. It would be still more unreasonable to argue that if any one of them was lost and never found again that it was never found. What would be the process and result of finding them any number of times should they be lost? The same thing is possible of people who go back to sin any number of times.

14. David was renewed again after he committed sin (Ps. 51:1-14).

15. God taught Israel time and again that He would restore them again, if they would meet conditions (Isa. 1:16-18; Jer. 3:13-15; 4:1-4; 18:1-10; Hos. 6:1-3; 10:12-13; 2Chr. 7:14).

There is nothing made but what can be revived, restored, recast, refinished, rebuilt, reanimated, refashioned, and remade be proper and skilled workmen. Shall we say the Almighty God is the only one who cannot do His work over and over again, if it needs to be done? Shall we say man alone cannot be forgiven, restored to favor, and recreated more than once?

Dake's Annotated Reference Bible: Containing the Old and New Testaments of the Authorized or King James Version Text.

[branham1965]

Dad Hagin taught that fallen away people could be restored.he taught that all his life.IVE HEARD HIM SAY IT.Reverend Ken Hagin Jr.teaches it.Lynette Hagin teaches it. They teach fallen away people can be restored.



ive read after him since 1978.ive heard ???? of his sermons including the one one the sin unto death.



He did teach a mature Christian with Spiritual Gifts IN CERTAIN INSTANCES could fall away for good.it was in that Vision he had of that woman.
She formed a cult.she blasphemed the Lord and was very evil towards Christ in her demonic meetings.Gordon and Freda Lindsay saw her and she turned white.and ran off.not long after she died of a strange condition.

[branham1965]

it was his brother in law Doc.

God had dealt with him for years but he would not listen.
God healed the man of a broken back when he was living in adultery.
he would weep when Dad Hagin ministered to him.but he said im not gonna do it ill go my own way and do things my way.
Dad under divine unction drove across Texas in a jalopy to warn this man.but he would not listen.Dad was on his face praying for the man in the Church when he was told get up off of there.....dont you ever pray another prayer for that man as long as you live.Ephraim is joined to his idols.let him alone.


ANOTHER testimony was a man who went in a Pentecostal Church and spoke forth a message and said this is your last chance.
Dad Hagin said oddly the man was actually speaking to himself. this man said it in the Church .and then said i want everyone here to know as far as Jesus Christ goes to hell with him.and he walked out of the Church.he sealed his fate.

the beautiful woman said this to the AG pastors who came to her door.oh i know why you are here.she was wearing some mans shirt and it was part open.she said as far as Jesus Christ to hell with him.
he saw in the Vision her going into the Lake of fire.and he heard her awful screams.

Dad said she could have taken up with 1,000 men.and committed sins and so forth.and if she had returned to him HE WOULD HAVE FORGIVEN HER.i heard him say this.The Lord told him.
but she got to the place where she did not want Jesus anymore.and that was it.it was curtains for her.

Reverend Dake says there are ordinary backsliders .they can be forgiven.see notes Heb 6 etc.

but apostates and reprobates are doomed.

I remember reading that account. He also talks about his brother-in-law in one of his sermons who was saved but later rejected Christ. One day while praying for him the Lord spoke to Hagin and told him not to call this man's name up before Him anymore. Hagin could not understand but the Lord reminded him about the passage in which He told the prophet that Ephraim has clung to his idols. Let him alone.

His brother-in-law died cursing God.

[branham1965]

i believe it exactly as he wrote it in 1993 in his best seller "The Triumphant Church: Dominion Over All The Power Of Darkness.
by the Reverend Kenneth Erwin Hagin Sr.






[/quote]
Sounds like Hagin believed that there was a falling away that wasn't a loss of salvation and that an actual loss of salvation was a permanent thing. And, that an actual loss of salvation required willful intent by a mature Christian (that intended to lose their salvation).

Is that what you are saying, Billy?[/quote]

[luchnia]

I was going to pull some of my Hagin books and look through them, however I just don't think it worth it for this subject. Maybe Hagin's views changed over time since the time he wrote many of his books. When I was researching Hagin I found many things that I thought did not line up close enough with God's Word and many things that did line up. I don't recall if falling away was a big topic of concern for me at the time.

Bear with me on something. Scripture seems to indicate a man can indeed fall into apostasy to the point of no return, yet I wonder if ignorance can get you there. Let me pose a question. Did those that attribute the work of satan to Jesus do it out of ignorance of head knowledge or knowingly from the heart? If a person did not know the Spirit by which Jesus worked how could they blaspheme Him? Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

Another way to put it is how can you reject what you do not know? Can you fall from where you have not been? The hypocrites in Jesus day knew Him and that is the only way they could pin the works of the devil on Him, right? Isn't the permanent falling away along these lines?

I suppose we don't exactly know Hagin's thoughts on a permanent falling away. I think there is a MEGA problem with the doctrine of falling away only being out of fellowship with God because we can easily show that sin damns the soul and should close the case on any such teaching whether it be from Hagin or whomever. There is nothing that teaches a man can follow sin and satan and God and righteousness at the same time. As they say, "not gonna happen."

[branham1965]

When folks get on Dad Hagin ....

I was going to pull some of my Hagin books and look through them, however I just don't think it worth it for this subject. Maybe Hagin's views changed over time since the time he wrote many of his books. When I was researching Hagin I found many things that I thought did not line up close enough with God's Word and many things that did line up. I don't recall if falling away was a big topic of concern for me at the time.

Bear with me on something. Scripture seems to indicate a man can indeed fall into apostasy to the point of no return, yet I wonder if ignorance can get you there. Let me pose a question. Did those that attribute the work of satan to Jesus do it out of ignorance of head knowledge or knowingly from the heart? If a person did not know the Spirit by which Jesus worked how could they blaspheme Him? Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

Another way to put it is how can you reject what you do not know? Can you fall from where you have not been? The hypocrites in Jesus day knew Him and that is the only way they could pin the works of the devil on Him, right? Isn't the permanent falling away along these lines?

I suppose we don't exactly know Hagin's thoughts on a permanent falling away. I think there is a MEGA problem with the doctrine of falling away only being out of fellowship with God because we can easily show that sin damns the soul and should close the case on any such teaching whether it be from Hagin or whomever. There is nothing that teaches a man can follow sin and satan and God and righteousness at the same time. As they say, "not gonna happen."