Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Questions Young Earth Theorists Have Not Been Able to Answer

[Ray]

Hello Leon,
Conversing on the Gen1:1 "the Beginning" and the John 1:1-3 "the Beginning"
I asked you :
Why do you believe (or Rev. Finis teach) that this Gen 1 account of the Beginning and creation and the John 1 account of the beginning and the creation are speaking of 2 different events ???
Your Reply was:
"Why do you believe it is the same event?"

1) In Both the Gen 1 account and the John 1 account the phrase " in the Beginning " are used, and in
Both accounts the words "created" or "creation" as what occurred "in the Beginning"

2)In Both the Gen 1 account and the John 1 account the definite article "the" is used before the word
"Beginning" making this a specific "beginning", while both accounts of the words "beginning" are in
combination with the words "created" or "creation" being an act (or action) of GOD in both accounts.


Gen 1
1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth
John 1:
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made
of the creation

[bibleman]

Hello Leon,
Conversing on the Gen1:1 "the Beginning" and the John 1:1-3 "the Beginning"
I asked you :
Why do you believe (or Rev. Finis teach) that this Gen 1 account of the Beginning and creation and the John 1 account of the beginning and the creation are speaking of 2 different events ???
Your Reply was:
"Why do you believe it is the same event?"

1) In Both the Gen 1 account and the John 1 account the phrase " in the Beginning " are used, and in
Both accounts the words "created" or "creation" as what occurred "in the Beginning"

2)In Both the Gen 1 account and the John 1 account the definite article "the" is used before the word
"Beginning" making this a specific "beginning", while both accounts of the words "beginning" are in
combination with the words "created" or "creation" being an act (or action) of GOD in both accounts.


Gen 1
1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth
John 1:
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made
of the creation

In Genesis 1:1 ONLY the heaven and the earth are mentioned - so it would seem that the Genesis account deals primarily with the creation of the Earth and the heavens immediately surrounding it

In John 1:1-3 ALL things are mentioned - so this could encompass Genesis 1:1 above PLUS all the other galaxies and universes that may exist through out all of creation.

You don't believe that ALL God created is the heavens and the earth do you? If so then who created the rest of creation?

[Ray]

Ray,"In the beginning" [literally by periods or ages] God created the heaven, [Hebrew, heavens] and the earth, not 6000years ago God created the Heaven and the earth.
When we speak of the six days and the creation of the present life on Earth, we can speak with Bible authority that it was about 6000 years ago. This can be seen by the lengths of the various dispensations since Adam. In no Scripture are we taught to believe that the heavens and the Earth were originally created during the six days and at the time of Adam about 6000 years ago.
Some use Exodus 20:8-11; 31:17 to try and prove that the heavens and the Earth were created in the six days of Gen. 1:3-2:25, and therefore, that they were created about 6000 years ago. However, nothing is said of the original creation of the heavens and the Earth in these passages.

In these Scriptures the Hebrew word 'ASAH,' meaning to make out of already existing material, is used instead of the word 'BARA,' to create. These verses picture the re-creation work of the six days and not the original creation "In the beginning."

'ASAH' never means to create. It is translated 'MADE,' 659 times; 'MAKE,' 449 times; 'MAKETH,' 59 times and 'MAKEST,' sixteen times; 'MAKER,' thirteen times; 'MAKING,' eleven times; and 'MADEST,' three times.

When God said, "In six days, the Lord 'MADE' heaven and Earth," he had in mind the restoration of the heaven (firmament,or clouds) the Earth to a habitable state as it was before the destruction of Lucifers kingdom by the flood and Gen. 1:2.

Notes all taken from When God created and made the Material Universe. Dake's PFM page 81, 82.

Hello Haz,
Thanks for addressing this question.
You wrote:
"Ray,"In the beginning" [literally by periods or ages] God created the heaven, [Hebrew, heavens] and the earth, not 6000years ago God created the Heaven and the earth."

***RIGHT Haz, But Neither anything above 6000 years are in any way mentioned.

***Then you go on to admit that "When we speak of the six days and the "CREATION" of the present life on Earth, we can speak with Bible authority that it was about 6000 years ago. This can be seen by the lengths of the various dispensations since Adam."

"When we speak of the six days and the creation of the present life on Earth, we can speak with Bible authority that it was about 6000 years ago. This can be seen by the lengths of the various dispensations since Adam. In no Scripture are we taught to believe that the heavens and the Earth were originally created during the six days and at the time of Adam about 6000 years ago."

Then You Write:
" In no Scripture are we taught to believe that the heavens and the Earth were originally created during the six days and at the time of Adam about 6000 years ago."

*** BUT, YET REMEBER "When we speak of the six days and the creation of the present life on Earth, we can speak with Bible authority that it was about 6000 years ago."

*************** NOW CONCERNING the words "Make, Made" (Heb asah) and "Create, Created" (Heb bara)

The verse below is of The Gen. 1 Six Day Creation account
(Please Note "make" asah man)
Genesis 1:26 King James Version (KJV)
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Again Note the word "made" asah the earth, and the word "created" bara man
Isaiah 45:12 King James Version (KJV)
12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

*** Haz, The Gen 1:26 verse above uses "make" asah man YET the Isaiah 45:12 verse above uses "created"
bara man.

HAZ, WAS MAN MADE OR CREATED ????
CLEARLY MAN WAS "MADE" OF THE DUST OF THE EARTH, YET WE SEE HERE HE WAS CREATED. HOW CAN THIS BE ACCORDING TO YOUR STSTEMENTS.

HAZ: According to you "ASAH,' meaning to make out of already existing material,'ASAH' never means to create" THE ISAIAH 45:12 PASSAGE ABOVE STATES GOD "CREATED" MAN.

AGAIN IN Genesis 1:26 King James Version (KJV)
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image,
*****YET*****
Genesis 5:1 King James Version (KJV)
5 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
The passage above "GOD CREATED MAN" and "GOD MADE HIM"
Created or Made HAZ which ONE ???
CLEARLY passages such as above Completely Refutes your teaching on ""ASAH,' meaning to make out of already existing material,'ASAH' never means to create"

Genesis 6:7King James Version (KJV)
7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

AGAIN HAZ, Above we see man "MADE" and man "CREATED"
Yet You Wrote "Made "ASAH' never means to create.
HAZ, Can you see YET a problem with this "Made" vs. "Create" Doctrine ???

[Ray]

Hello Leon,
Conversing on the Gen1:1 "the Beginning" and the John 1:1-3 "the Beginning"
I asked you :
Why do you believe (or Rev. Finis teach) that this Gen 1 account of the Beginning and creation and the John 1 account of the beginning and the creation are speaking of 2 different events ???
Your Reply was:
"Why do you believe it is the same event?"

1) In Both the Gen 1 account and the John 1 account the phrase " in the Beginning " are used, and in
Both accounts the words "created" or "creation" as what occurred "in the Beginning"

2)In Both the Gen 1 account and the John 1 account the definite article "the" is used before the word
"Beginning" making this a specific "beginning", while both accounts of the words "beginning" are in
combination with the words "created" or "creation" being an act (or action) of GOD in both accounts.


Gen 1
1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth
John 1:
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made
of the creation

In Genesis 1:1 ONLY the heaven and the earth are mentioned - so it would seem that the Genesis account deals primarily with the creation of the Earth and the heavens immediately surrounding it

In John 1:1-3 ALL things are mentioned - so this could encompass Genesis 1:1 above PLUS all the other galaxies and universes that may exist through out all of creation.

You don't believe that ALL God created is the heavens and the earth do you? If so then who created the rest of creation?

In the Genesis 1:1-31 ALL of CREATION is mentioned.

As is Mentioned in the verse Below.
Exodus 20:11King James Version (KJV)
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it

As for The Teaching "Made" vs."Created "

Genesis 6:7King James Version (KJV)
7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Genesis 5:1 King James Version (KJV)
5 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

The verses Above CLEARLY Teach.

What GOD has Created HE Made,
and What GOD Made HE Created.

[bibleman]

Hello Leon,
Conversing on the Gen1:1 "the Beginning" and the John 1:1-3 "the Beginning"
I asked you :
Why do you believe (or Rev. Finis teach) that this Gen 1 account of the Beginning and creation and the John 1 account of the beginning and the creation are speaking of 2 different events ???
Your Reply was:
"Why do you believe it is the same event?"

1) In Both the Gen 1 account and the John 1 account the phrase " in the Beginning " are used, and in
Both accounts the words "created" or "creation" as what occurred "in the Beginning"

2)In Both the Gen 1 account and the John 1 account the definite article "the" is used before the word
"Beginning" making this a specific "beginning", while both accounts of the words "beginning" are in
combination with the words "created" or "creation" being an act (or action) of GOD in both accounts.


Gen 1
1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth
John 1:
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made
of the creation

In Genesis 1:1 ONLY the heaven and the earth are mentioned - so it would seem that the Genesis account deals primarily with the creation of the Earth and the heavens immediately surrounding it

In John 1:1-3 ALL things are mentioned - so this could encompass Genesis 1:1 above PLUS all the other galaxies and universes that may exist through out all of creation.

You don't believe that ALL God created is the heavens and the earth do you? If so then who created the rest of creation?

In the Genesis 1:1-31 ALL of CREATION is mentioned.

As is Mentioned in the verse Below.
Exodus 20:11King James Version (KJV)
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it

As for The Teaching "Made" vs."Created "

Genesis 6:7King James Version (KJV)
7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Genesis 5:1 King James Version (KJV)
5 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

The verses Above CLEARLY Teach.

What GOD has Created HE Made,
and What GOD Made HE Created.

Ray,

What day did God create water?

[Ray]

Hello Leon,
Conversing on the Gen1:1 "the Beginning" and the John 1:1-3 "the Beginning"
I asked you :
Why do you believe (or Rev. Finis teach) that this Gen 1 account of the Beginning and creation and the John 1 account of the beginning and the creation are speaking of 2 different events ???
Your Reply was:
"Why do you believe it is the same event?"

1) In Both the Gen 1 account and the John 1 account the phrase " in the Beginning " are used, and in
Both accounts the words "created" or "creation" as what occurred "in the Beginning"

2)In Both the Gen 1 account and the John 1 account the definite article "the" is used before the word
"Beginning" making this a specific "beginning", while both accounts of the words "beginning" are in
combination with the words "created" or "creation" being an act (or action) of GOD in both accounts.


Gen 1
1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth
John 1:
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made
of the creation

In Genesis 1:1 ONLY the heaven and the earth are mentioned - so it would seem that the Genesis account deals primarily with the creation of the Earth and the heavens immediately surrounding it

In John 1:1-3 ALL things are mentioned - so this could encompass Genesis 1:1 above PLUS all the other galaxies and universes that may exist through out all of creation.

You don't believe that ALL God created is the heavens and the earth do you? If so then who created the rest of creation?

In the Genesis 1:1-31 ALL of CREATION is mentioned.

As is Mentioned in the verse Below.
Exodus 20:11King James Version (KJV)
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it

As for The Teaching "Made" vs."Created "

Genesis 6:7King James Version (KJV)
7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Genesis 5:1 King James Version (KJV)
5 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

The verses Above CLEARLY Teach.

What GOD has Created HE Made,
and What GOD Made HE Created.

Ray,

What day did God create water?

Day One

[luchnia]

"And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." One wonders about that water the Spirit was hovering over - where did it come from and when was it created and how did it get on earth?

"I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light." Where did the light go to?

"I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled." Where did man and birds go?

"I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness," What happened to the fruitful land?

Something weird was going on.

[bibleman]

Hello Leon,
Conversing on the Gen1:1 "the Beginning" and the John 1:1-3 "the Beginning"
I asked you :
Why do you believe (or Rev. Finis teach) that this Gen 1 account of the Beginning and creation and the John 1 account of the beginning and the creation are speaking of 2 different events ???
Your Reply was:
"Why do you believe it is the same event?"

1) In Both the Gen 1 account and the John 1 account the phrase " in the Beginning " are used, and in
Both accounts the words "created" or "creation" as what occurred "in the Beginning"

2)In Both the Gen 1 account and the John 1 account the definite article "the" is used before the word
"Beginning" making this a specific "beginning", while both accounts of the words "beginning" are in
combination with the words "created" or "creation" being an act (or action) of GOD in both accounts.


Gen 1
1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth
John 1:
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made
of the creation

In Genesis 1:1 ONLY the heaven and the earth are mentioned - so it would seem that the Genesis account deals primarily with the creation of the Earth and the heavens immediately surrounding it

In John 1:1-3 ALL things are mentioned - so this could encompass Genesis 1:1 above PLUS all the other galaxies and universes that may exist through out all of creation.

You don't believe that ALL God created is the heavens and the earth do you? If so then who created the rest of creation?

In the Genesis 1:1-31 ALL of CREATION is mentioned.

As is Mentioned in the verse Below.
Exodus 20:11King James Version (KJV)
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it

As for The Teaching "Made" vs."Created "

Genesis 6:7King James Version (KJV)
7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Genesis 5:1 King James Version (KJV)
5 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

The verses Above CLEARLY Teach.

What GOD has Created HE Made,
and What GOD Made HE Created.

Ray,

What day did God create water?

Day One

What Scripture do you offer that states God created water on day one?

[Ray]

Hello Leon,
Conversing on the Gen1:1 "the Beginning" and the John 1:1-3 "the Beginning"
I asked you :
Why do you believe (or Rev. Finis teach) that this Gen 1 account of the Beginning and creation and the John 1 account of the beginning and the creation are speaking of 2 different events ???
Your Reply was:
"Why do you believe it is the same event?"

1) In Both the Gen 1 account and the John 1 account the phrase " in the Beginning " are used, and in
Both accounts the words "created" or "creation" as what occurred "in the Beginning"

2)In Both the Gen 1 account and the John 1 account the definite article "the" is used before the word
"Beginning" making this a specific "beginning", while both accounts of the words "beginning" are in
combination with the words "created" or "creation" being an act (or action) of GOD in both accounts.


Gen 1
1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth
John 1:
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made
of the creation

In Genesis 1:1 ONLY the heaven and the earth are mentioned - so it would seem that the Genesis account deals primarily with the creation of the Earth and the heavens immediately surrounding it

In John 1:1-3 ALL things are mentioned - so this could encompass Genesis 1:1 above PLUS all the other galaxies and universes that may exist through out all of creation.

You don't believe that ALL God created is the heavens and the earth do you? If so then who created the rest of creation?

In the Genesis 1:1-31 ALL of CREATION is mentioned.

As is Mentioned in the verse Below.
Exodus 20:11King James Version (KJV)
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it

As for The Teaching "Made" vs."Created "

Genesis 6:7King James Version (KJV)
7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Genesis 5:1 King James Version (KJV)
5 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

The verses Above CLEARLY Teach.

What GOD has Created HE Made,
and What GOD Made HE Created.

Ray,

What day did God create water?

Day One

What Scripture do you offer that states God created water on day one?

Hey Leon,

Do you not have ANY rebuttal on the FACT that SCRIPTURE completely REFUTES the Doctrine
of "Made" vs."Created" Topic ?

That The Old Testament uses these word (Made, Create) interchangeably .

That Exodus 20:11King James Version (KJV)

11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Clearly covers The WHOLE of Creation in 6 literal Days ??

Like to see Your rebuttal on THIS TOPIC.

***********************************************************************************************************************************
To answer the question you've asked.

Genesis 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

[bibleman]

Hello Leon,
Conversing on the Gen1:1 "the Beginning" and the John 1:1-3 "the Beginning"
I asked you :
Why do you believe (or Rev. Finis teach) that this Gen 1 account of the Beginning and creation and the John 1 account of the beginning and the creation are speaking of 2 different events ???
Your Reply was:
"Why do you believe it is the same event?"

1) In Both the Gen 1 account and the John 1 account the phrase " in the Beginning " are used, and in
Both accounts the words "created" or "creation" as what occurred "in the Beginning"

2)In Both the Gen 1 account and the John 1 account the definite article "the" is used before the word
"Beginning" making this a specific "beginning", while both accounts of the words "beginning" are in
combination with the words "created" or "creation" being an act (or action) of GOD in both accounts.


Gen 1
1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth
John 1:
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made
of the creation

In Genesis 1:1 ONLY the heaven and the earth are mentioned - so it would seem that the Genesis account deals primarily with the creation of the Earth and the heavens immediately surrounding it

In John 1:1-3 ALL things are mentioned - so this could encompass Genesis 1:1 above PLUS all the other galaxies and universes that may exist through out all of creation.

You don't believe that ALL God created is the heavens and the earth do you? If so then who created the rest of creation?

In the Genesis 1:1-31 ALL of CREATION is mentioned.

As is Mentioned in the verse Below.
Exodus 20:11King James Version (KJV)
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it

As for The Teaching "Made" vs."Created "

Genesis 6:7King James Version (KJV)
7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Genesis 5:1 King James Version (KJV)
5 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

The verses Above CLEARLY Teach.

What GOD has Created HE Made,
and What GOD Made HE Created.

Ray,

What day did God create water?

Day One

What Scripture do you offer that states God created water on day one?

Hey Leon,

Do you not have ANY rebuttal on the FACT that SCRIPTURE completely REFUTES the Doctrine
of "Made" vs."Created" Topic ?

That The Old Testament uses these word (Made, Create) interchangeably .

That Exodus 20:11King James Version (KJV)

11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Clearly covers The WHOLE of Creation in 6 literal Days ??

Like to see Your rebuttal on THIS TOPIC.

***********************************************************************************************************************************
To answer the question you've asked.

Genesis 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Hi Ray,

Did I miss it? Did not see any creation of water on day one!

So that is just your opinion and that is fine a lot of people have them.

But clearly the Bible does NOT state that water was made on day one as you would like to believe.

Dake use to say: "Why not take the Bible for what it does say... rather than what it doesn't say."