Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Questions Young Earth Theorists Have Not Been Able to Answer

[victoryword]

1. Genesis 1:1 says that in the beginning God created the HEAVENS and the earth. Why is it that verse 2 only mentions the earth being "tohu va bohu" and not the heavens?

2. Why is "tohu" or "tohu va bohu" when used in nearly every other passage in the OT is in reference to judgment, chaos, and ruin but YEC says that Genesis 1:2 is the only passage in which it does not mean any of that?

3. How could Satan so quickly fall AFTER man was created?

4. How did Satan so quickly learn the art of deception to the point of convincing a third of the angels to fall with him and then later Eve in just a 24 to 48 hour period?

5. How do you reconcile Ezekiel 28 and Isa. 14, the revelation of Lucifer's fall, with the ideas in questions 4 and 5?

6. If you say that Lucifer rebelled BEFORE God created the earth as some YEC proponents claim then how do you reconcile the statements in Ezekiel 28 and Isa. 14 in which God says that Lucifer would be thrown to the earth?

7. If you deny that Ezekiel 28 and Isa. 14 are reference to Satan then how would you explain Satan's existence? The problem of evil?

[victoryword]

One YEC advocate did try to answer me on another forum. Here is there reply and my responses:

I'll try. :)

1. Genesis 1:1 says that in the beginning God created the HEAVENS and the earth. Why is it that verse 2 only mentions the earth being "tohu va bohu" and not the heavens?

The Hebrew Bible says "the heaven and earth" meaning only earth's atmosphere and earth were created on the first day. Space (2nd heaven) and Paradise (3rd heaven) aren't a part of the 6 day creation according to the Hebrew Bible. They were pre-existing.

Whether or not the 2nd heaven (space) is created on the 1st day, there's no other planets yet. Sun, moon, and stars get created on day 4.

IOW, regarding "heaven" or "heavens", there's only space (lacking breathable air, density, and pressure) and earth's atmosphere (possibly breathable air). What can you form or shape? What can you destroy or put into chaos?

The same with the water covering the earth. It wasn't "tohu" or "tohu va bohu" either because there's nothing to form or shape, or destroy or put into chaos.

But the empty formless earth under the deep water needs a lot of shaping to make it habitable for plant, animal, and human life.

Part of the problem with your answer here is that the "heavens" that surround the earth is without question "created" on the 2nd day:

• Genesis 1:6-8
  6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
  7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
  8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Whereas your in your answer you appear to be unsure about this, the Bible itself makes it plain that the "heavens" in Genesis 1:1 is seperate from the "creation" in the above passage. I put "creation" in quotes because Genesis implies that the firmament that would be called "heaven" was already in existence but was covered by water.

So Genesis 1:1 could not be a reference to the earth's atmosphere as you propose in your answer to number 1. The other thing you bring up is the waters. Have you ever noticed that no where is the waters spoken into existence? If Genesis is describing six days of creation then where does the water come from? Why is the "firmament" that later becomes the atmosphere surrounding the earth (notice that it is not land but "heaven") in the midst of the waters?

2. Why is "tohu" or "tohu va bohu" when used in nearly every other passage in the OT is in reference to judgment, chaos, and ruin but YEC says that Genesis 1:2 is the only passage in which it does not mean any of that?

If you think "tohu" or "tohu va bohu" means without form and shape, rather than destroyed and put into chaos, there isn't a problem.

IOW, if something hasn't YET been formed and shaped, it's "tohu" or "tohu va bohu".

AND if something is destroyed or put into chaos, it BECOMES "tohu" or "tohu va bohu".

It depends on what a person thinks "tohu" or "tohu va bohu" means.

EG. A lump of clay on the potter's wheel is without form, empty of usable purpose, shape, decoration, etc. It's "tohu" or "tohu va bohu".

IT might be fresh from the earth, or it might have been a beautiful clay pot smashed and pulverized back into dust, mixed with water, and kneaded back into a lump of clay. Either way it's "tohu" or "tohu va bohu".

The problem with this answer is that it really does not answer the question, which is, Why is "tohu" or "tohu va bohu" when used in nearly every other passage in the OT is in reference to judgment, chaos, and ruin but YEC says that Genesis 1:2 is the only passage in which it does not mean any of that?

You just revert back to the standard YEC answer that Tohu va bohu only means without shape and form. Yet, in every other place in the OT the phrase refers to chaos and judgment. The YECers cannot explain why Genesis 1:2 is the only exception in all of the Hebrew Bible. I'm afraid your explanation, though a valiant effort at trying, does not provide an adequate response to this.

Let me keep this simple: You MUST answer why Genesis 1:2 is the only place where tohu va bohu is not chaos and judgment when the rest of the OT uses the phrase in that exact same manner.

3. How could Satan so quickly fall AFTER man was created?

Satan was thrown down to the earth AFTER this lump of clay covered in water was created, but BEFORE man was created.

How long was he plotting against God before he recruited other angels to his side?

How long did the "war" go on before he and his angels were thrown down?

Was there "time" before the 6 day creation?

When did time start?

When God said "LIGHT BE"?

Or maybe time was created when the sun, moon, stars, and seasons were created on the 4th day?

Heaven is eternally timeless. There's no need for time in heaven.

Only earth and the 6 day creation is "timed".

How long is "long" or "short" when we're talking about timelessness?

The devil lived in this timeless eternity dimension before he rebelled and was thrown down to the earth.

TF, you are getting more into philosophy and speculation here than providng a Biblical response to support a YEC position. Most YECers and I agree on the fact that the Genesis 1 six days of creation (YEC) or restoration (GAP proponents) are 24 hour periods. We cannot speculate about "time" having a "creation" on "day 6". That really is not an answer since a "day" represents time already being in existence.

I'm afraid that if Satan was created within that 24 hour period and then suddenly fell then God's creation was not as good as He claimed:

• Genesis 1:31
  31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

4. How did Satan so quickly learn the art of deception to the point of convincing a third of the angels to fall with him and then later Eve in just a 24 to 48 hour period?

He used what he learned in the "timeless" time he was in God's service, to turn against God and rebel before the 6 day "timed" creation took place.

How long was evil and deception brewing in his heart before he took action?

How long is "long" or "short" when we're talking about "timelessness" (eternity)?

There's no indication how long before the 6 day creation the devil and his angels rebelled.

There's no indication of how long the war between the devil's gang and the Holy angels took.

Nothing seems to be timed or put in chronological order BEFORE or outside of the 6 day "timed" creation.

Why is that? What is timelessness and the eternity dimension like?

It's probably far beyond our comprehension.

The devil had inferior power and knowledge and was defeated by God's Holy angels, but he still had immensely more knowledge of good and evil than newbies like Adam and Eve, and even us today. The Holy Spirit is our only available source of deep knowledge. Other than that, we have limited knowledge on earth.

It's relative to a university professor tricking a pre-school child. Fairly simple. Probably no preparation time needed to easily trick a preschooler into disobeying his parents.

How could anyone dwell in the presence of Almighty God for as long as he did, and not know more than we earth beings?

TF, I was really hoping for BIBLICAL responses rather than philisophical speculation. I know that YEC is built on a lot of philosophy, but with their vehement attacks on the GAP I would think that YEC had something more concrete. Please take note of something that God says concerning Satan:

• Ezekiel 28:15
  15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

A "day" represents "time". Satan was not created in some timeless void nor could he live in one if he was created on a "day". "Timeless" in philosophical terms implies no beginning or ending. Satan has a beginning. The Bible tells us in Rev. 12 that SATAN'S TIME IS SHORT!!!

Furthermore, are you implying that Satan learned "deception" while in this proposed timeless void?

5. How do you reconcile Ezekiel 28 and Isa. 14, the revelation of Lucifer's fall, with the ideas in questions 4 and 5?

6. If you say that Lucifer rebelled BEFORE God created the earth as some YEC proponents claim then how do you reconcile the statements in Ezekiel 28 and Isa. 14 in which God says that Lucifer would be thrown to the earth?

7. If you deny that Ezekiel 28 and Isa. 14 are reference to Satan then how would you explain Satan's existence? The problem of evil?

He must have fallen to earth while it was still "tohu" or "tohu va bohu", without form and empty.

Or at least before Adam and Eve were created.

That's my 2cents.

So God creates a formless and void earth, Satan rebels while it was still in this condition, God throws him to the "not yet finished earth" and then begins to "create" over his dead angelic body?

Um..... okay.....

If this is YEC then I think I'll stay with the GAP :D

[victoryword]

More attempts to responde from another forum along with my rebuttals:

If this is YEC then I think I'll stay with the GAP:D

My guess is that was your intent from the beginning?

I have changed my position in times past when given irrefutable BIBLE evidence.

As for created or forming earth over Satan's dead angelic body..well we know he was not dead..he is called the prince of the air..so he didn't need earth to be habitable I wouldn't think. Victoryword, I did feel the need to challenge you to not resort to this stuff.:nono: That will appeal to those who agree with you but it won't appeal to anyone who might be willing to actually discuss this.

It was a joke.

Also, stating an interpretation is not philosophy..

One's "interpretation" must have concrete evidence or it becomes a philosophy.

Transliteration
tohuw Pronunciation
tō'•hü (Key)
Part of Speech
masculine noun Root Word (Etymology)
From an unused root meaning to lie waste
Dictionary Aids
TWOT Reference: 2494a
Outline of Biblical Usage
1. formlessness, confusion, unreality, emptiness
1. formlessness (of primeval earth)
1. nothingness, empty space
2. that which is empty or unreal (of idols) (fig)
3. wasteland, wilderness (of solitary places)
4. place of chaos
5. vanity

"The problem with this answer is that it really does not answer the question, which is, Why is "tohu" or "tohu va bohu" when used in nearly every other passage in the OT is in reference to judgment, chaos, and ruin but YEC says that Genesis 1:2 is the only passage in which it does not mean any of that?

In the other passages it does mean Void, empty, wasteland..depicting the absence of blessing and life due to GOD withdrawing it which is what 'judgment' is really isn't it? So in the Creation the absence of structure and order could simply mean He has not yet BLESSED it with life?
So it would still depict the absence of...not necessarily the withdrawal of..

• In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters (Genesis 1:1-2)

If this is interpreted according to YEC then God was never absent so your statement really does not make sense. Are you saying that from a YEC standpoint God started working on it, got tired or bored, left it alone for a while and decided to get back to it later, thus He was "absent"?

[victoryword]

And more attempts (by the same person above)

3. How could Satan so quickly fall AFTER man was created?

I did not see a reference of time between the creation of Adam and Eve and Satan's fall and as noted earlier whose to say satan was not cast out long before the earth was formed and simply came here afterward to attempt to create his own kingdom through usurping the authority placed here?

That would not make sense based on God's own words:

• Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. So I threw you to the earth; I made a spectacle of you before kings (Eze. 28:17).
  
  How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! (Isa. 14:12)

4. How did Satan so quickly learn the art of deception to the point of convincing a third of the angels to fall with him and then later Eve in just a 24 to 48 hour period?

Seriously? He needed to 'learn the art'? Evil was found in him..And why do you think it was a 24-48 hour period?

Your second question will be answered first: Many YECers believe that Satan fell right after Adam was created. That is why it would have to be a one or two day window. If people can easily learn the art of deception and is able to persuade a third of the angels to follow him after what may have been millions of years in God's holy and loving presence, then angels are exceptionally stupid and Satan got evil pretty quick. That simply is not the normal experience as it takes time to be persuaded and deceived after knowing the truth for so many centuries. That is why the GAP is a better option than YEC. Too many ridiculous fallacies.

5. How do you reconcile Ezekiel 28 and Isa. 14, the revelation of Lucifer's fall, with the ideas in questions 4 and 5?

Not sure the conclusions force this reconciliation yet..

Do you mean your conclusions so far?

6. If you say that Lucifer rebelled BEFORE God created the earth as some YEC proponents claim then how do you reconcile the statements in Ezekiel 28 and Isa. 14 in which God says that Lucifer would be thrown to the earth?

Both seem to speak of future tense so I am not convinced Satan was 'cast to THE EARTH'. In Ezekiel it says he will be cast to the ground and in Isa it seems to be speaking in context of the end time...not the past..

Ground is synonymous with earth. The word is used interchangeably and some translations do prefer earth (see my quotes above).

7. If you deny that Ezekiel 28 and Isa. 14 are reference to Satan then how would you explain Satan's existence? The problem of evil?

Both passages do seem to speak of Satan...but the conclusion that the references are saying he was cast to EARTH are inconclusive at this point for me.

So shouldn't one come to some concrete Biblical conclusions before rejecting the GAP and embracing YEC?

[Ray]

1. Genesis 1:1 says that in the beginning God created the HEAVENS and the earth. Why is it that verse 2 only mentions the earth being "tohu va bohu" and not the heavens?

2. Why is "tohu" or "tohu va bohu" when used in nearly every other passage in the OT is in reference to judgment, chaos, and ruin but YEC says that Genesis 1:2 is the only passage in which it does not mean any of that?

3. How could Satan so quickly fall AFTER man was created?

4. How did Satan so quickly learn the art of deception to the point of convincing a third of the angels to fall with him and then later Eve in just a 24 to 48 hour period?

5. How do you reconcile Ezekiel 28 and Isa. 14, the revelation of Lucifer's fall, with the ideas in questions 4 and 5?

6. If you say that Lucifer rebelled BEFORE God created the earth as some YEC proponents claim then how do you reconcile the statements in Ezekiel 28 and Isa. 14 in which God says that Lucifer would be thrown to the earth?

7. If you deny that Ezekiel 28 and Isa. 14 are reference to Satan then how would you explain Satan's existence? The problem of evil?

Hello Victoryword,

1. Genesis 1:1 says that in the beginning God created the HEAVENS and the earth. Why is it that verse 2 only mentions the earth being "tohu va bohu" and not the heavens?

*** Though the Heavens at the very beginning of this event was without stars, planets, moons, sun. The Presence of GOD was there, I guess Moses through the instruction of The HOLY SPIRIT could not call
the environment of The Heavens "void" (tohu) and "without form" (bohu) Where GOD dwells.

2. Why is "tohu" or "tohu va bohu" when used in nearly every other passage in the OT is in reference to judgment, chaos, and ruin but YEC says that Genesis 1:2 is the only passage in which it does not mean any of that?

*** Because after the Creation mentioned in the Genesis account nothing was completely void and without
form unless GOD caused it.

3. How could Satan so quickly fall AFTER man was created?

*** By persuading mankind to obey him instead of obeying GOD.

4. How did Satan so quickly learn the art of deception to the point of convincing a third of the angels to fall with him and then later Eve in just a 24 to 48 hour period?

*** I will have to answer this question with a question (as maybe you have seen verses I didn't) where is it given that satan " convincing a third of the angels to fall with him and then later Eve in just a 24 to 48 hour period?" ***How long would it take one "full of wisdom" one who is an "anointed Cherub" ? I don't know, but I would guess not very long.


I hope to address Questions 5-7 later

[Ray]

1. Genesis 1:1 says that in the beginning God created the HEAVENS and the earth. Why is it that verse 2 only mentions the earth being "tohu va bohu" and not the heavens?

2. Why is "tohu" or "tohu va bohu" when used in nearly every other passage in the OT is in reference to judgment, chaos, and ruin but YEC says that Genesis 1:2 is the only passage in which it does not mean any of that?

3. How could Satan so quickly fall AFTER man was created?

4. How did Satan so quickly learn the art of deception to the point of convincing a third of the angels to fall with him and then later Eve in just a 24 to 48 hour period?

5. How do you reconcile Ezekiel 28 and Isa. 14, the revelation of Lucifer's fall, with the ideas in questions 4 and 5?

6. If you say that Lucifer rebelled BEFORE God created the earth as some YEC proponents claim then how do you reconcile the statements in Ezekiel 28 and Isa. 14 in which God says that Lucifer would be thrown to the earth?

7. If you deny that Ezekiel 28 and Isa. 14 are reference to Satan then how would you explain Satan's 6. If you say that Lucifer rebelled BEFORE God created the earth as some YEC proponents claim then how do you reconcile the statements in Ezekiel 28 and Isa. 14 in which God says that Lucifer would be thrown to the earth?existence? The problem of evil?

Hello victoryword,
I will attempt to continue to address your questions:

5. How do you reconcile Ezekiel 28 and Isa. 14, the revelation of Lucifer's fall, with the ideas in questions 4 and 5?

***Being this is question #5 I will assume you meant questions #3 & #4.
It is what is given in the Ezekiel 28 passage verses 12-15 as to the description of this Being and exactly what
Lucifer was before he fell that Clearly gives him the ability to accomplish what is asked in questions 3 & 4.
(see also my answer to question 3)

If one would read Ezekiel 28:12-19 it appears to be in chronological order, I believe Lucifer was in the Garden of Eden as the Anointed Cherub that Covereth (hedges in) and put there as such By GOD.
(I know you disagree, But you can prove your disagreement with Scripture?)
Ezekiel 28:12-15 King James Version (KJV)
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.


6. If you say that Lucifer rebelled BEFORE God created the earth as some YEC proponents claim then how do you reconcile the statements in Ezekiel 28 and Isa. 14 in which God says that Lucifer would be thrown to the earth?

***No, I would not say such as it is not what is given in the Scriptures. Neither that Lucifer rebelled in an age before the 6 days of Creation given in Gen.1 as many of the OEC proponents claim as it in no way is given in the Scriptures.

7. If you deny that Ezekiel 28 and Isa. 14 are reference to Satan then how would you explain Satan's 6. If you say that Lucifer rebelled BEFORE God created the earth as some YEC proponents claim then how do you reconcile the statements in Ezekiel 28 and Isa. 14 in which God says that Lucifer would be thrown to the earth?existence? The problem of evil?[/quote]

*** I do not deny Ezekiel 28 and Isa. 14 are reference to Satan. It is in spite of Ezekiel 28 and the description
of Lucifer before he fell that is firm ground I stand on as a YEC believer.(along with other Scriptures of course.)

[Ray]

Questions for OEC Believers:
What do those that believe that the heavens and Earth were created before the 6 days (evening and morning) of creation given in Gen. 1 do with verses such as:

Exodus 20:11 King James Version (KJV)
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

How can one believe that Lucifer or any Angelic Being, or any pre-adamite race exist before the 6 days
described in the verse above and take the Scriptures in Context?

As the Creation account given in Gen 1 describe what is created each day then gives "and the evening and morning were THE FIRST DAY." Then gives the second day ect...

Was there a day before "the first day" ? If this is not believed to be "the first day" how does one decide
what to believe and what not to of that which is Clearly given in the Scriptures?
Gen 1:
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

[Ironman]

WHEN WAS "IN THE BEGINNING? Was it Gen. 1:1, or John 1:1-3. ?

God is a creator and has been creating throughout eternity past and He will continue creating into eternity future. The Earth was inhabited long before Adam and was ruled by Lucifer until, "Iniquity was found in him.

Lucifer was a fallen angel when he was allowed by God to enter Eden to tempt Adam to see if Adam would remain faithful.

Lucifer was the ruler of the Earth before Adam and Eve were created. It was the Pre-Adamite world.

Scripture shows that originally, God gave Lucifer control of the Earth kingdom (Rev. 12:12; Ezek. 28:11-18; Isa. 14:12-14).
Lucifer obeyed God and ruled for an unknown time before "Iniquity was found in him.

Before Adam Lucifer was the ruler of the Earth.

God is taking about Lucifer in these Scriptures. He was a perfect created angelic arc angel; "Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee" (Ezek. 28:13-15).

Lucifer wanted to control the universe and knock God off His throne. He over a long period of time convinced one third of God's angels to rebell with him and they rebelled against God and His universal rule, and invaded heaven to try and de-throne God Himself. (Ezek 28:11-18; Isa. 14:12-14).

Naturally Lucifer was defeated, and his kingdom on the earth was totally destroyed by a flood and by the fierce anger of God (Gen. 1;2; Jer. 4:23-26; Ps. 104:5-9; 2 Pet. 3:5-6), hence the severe geological contortions of the earth's crust, vast deposits of bones in various places world wide, fossiles thousands or millions of years old etc. The earth was turned upside down in this process, ever wondered why the moon is poc marked by countless craters, and yet we never see anything plowing into it these days causing such destruction. What about the other dead planets in our immediate solar system? The flood God caused to cover the earth remained for an unknown period of time, and then God, in six days restored the earth to a habitable state and made Adam and his creation to carry out the original plan of God conserning the Earth (Gen. 1:3-2:25).

Lucifer and his spirit rebels caused man to fall and by this regained dominion of the earth through Adams submission (2 Cor. 11:3; Eph. 2:1-3; 6:10-18; Rom. 5:12-21). Lucifer has been in control ever since and he will remain in control untill the second coming of Jesus Christ who will put down all rebellion in the Millennium. God will then finally make a New heavens and a New Earth wherein dwelleth righteousness forever (1 Cor. 15:24-28; Rev. 19:11-22:5).

This doctrin is too simple for most men to understand, so they reject it.

Now, 2 Peter 3:5-7 expresses this clearly in plain human language, "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing (emerging) out of the water and in the water:

Whereby the world THAT THEN WAS, being overflowed with water, PERISHED:
But the heavens and the Earth, WHICH ARE NOW, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

This is where people become confused and say the world "that then was," was the world before Noah's flood, but this cannot be because:

If the world that THAT THEN WAS" is that between Adam and the flood of Noah, then God created The heavens and the Earth WHICH ARE NOW" since the flood of Noah. Noah and his family lived prior to his flood and after it. The world "THAT THEN WAS PERISHED" and everything in it also perished. What change could Noah's flood make to the heavens? None, for floods on Earth can never cover the heavens. The earth, vegetation, the heavens, all remained the same after Noah's flood.

Peter, in (2 Peter 3:3-7) taught that scoffers were totally ignorant of the flood that destroyed the social system and the earth "that then was" (lucifers flood). These scoffers all knew of Noah's flood and still know today. This proves that the truth of the flood that destroyed the original creation was hidden from them, while they knew about Noah's flood.

What was it that the scoffers were ignorant of unless it was the destruction of the social system before Adam?

This is the doctrin of which men are still ignorant of, which they call "the gap theory." Peter said that the scoffers were willingly ignorant of this truth showing that it is a clear doctrin of Scripture if men would stop being ignorant of it. There are many Scriptures that make this doctrin clear; so "If any man wants to be ignorant, let him be ignorant," as Paul expressed in (1 Cor. 14:38).

Peter said these scoffers of the last days, the days we are in now, since Noah, would be ignorant of the fact that the heavens were of old; that the social system ruled by Lucifer on the old Earth perished by water; that the heavens and the Earth since the six days of restoration are kept in store to be purified again- the next time by fire; that the Lord is not slack concerning His promises of final restoration of the earth to its third perfect state; and that God was longsuffering to all men, not willing that any should perish, but all come to repentance. In Isa. 14:12-14 we have statements which cannot possibly of an earthly King. The passage is universally refering to the fall of Satan. We can quote it and note the facts.

"How art thou fallen from Heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which dist weaken the nations! For thou art hast said in thine heart, I WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN, I WILL EXALT MY THRONE above the stars of God: I WILL sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I WILL ascend above the heights of the clouds; I WILL BE like the most High," Now note the following facts this passage proves of Satan:

1. That his name is Lucifer.

2. That he was a son of the morning, and therefore, no earthly man.

3. That he fell from Heaven. This could never be spoken of a man. Satan is the only person in all Scripture who is spoken of as falling from Heaven (Luke 10:18).

4. That he was cut down to the ground in his fall.

5. That he weakened the nations on Earth.

6. That he was exalted in his heart.

7. That he invaded hHeaven where God rules.

8. That he was a KING, for he had a Throne and SUBJECTS over whom he ruled.

9. That he wanted to exalt his kingdom above the clouds, stars, and into Heaven itself to dethrone God.

10. That he wanted to be worshiped in the congregation of God (Ps. 72:2; 82:1; Isa. 6:1).

11. That he led a rebellion against God but was defeated.

12. That his kingdom was on Earth, or he never could have tried to ascend above the clouds, stars, and into Heaven. When a kingdom is located under the clouds it has to be on the Earth.

13. That the ground, clouds, stars, and Heaven were already created.

14. That it had to be before Adam, for this was not the position of Lucifer when he was in Adam's Eden. Adam had dominion at that time. Lucifer had no kingdom on the Earth at the time of Adam and he has not had one since in the sense of a visible personal rule on Earth. He has only ruled through others since Adam's day; so this must refer to a time before Adam.

15. That he was not in Heaven when he rebelled, else he could not have desired to ascend into Heaven. He was under the stars, or he could not have desired to be exalted above the stars. He was under the clouds, or he could not have desired to ascend above them.

16. That God's throne is located in the north part of the universe (Psalms 75:6-7). Thus, this passage proves the location of Satan's original kingdom and the time of his fall. It was located on Earth, and his fall was before Adam, for he was al;reday a fallen creature when he entered Adam' Eden.

In Coll. 1:15-18 we read of Christ creating thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers in Heaven and on Earth. They were located somewhere in the heavens and on the Earth. Lucifer was given a kingdom here on Earth, as proved by the passages cited above. His own subjects were earthly creatures of various kinds which were destroyed when the flood of Gen. 1:2 came upon the Earth. God created the Earth to be inhabited by earthly creatures (Isa. 45:18). They are called "nations" in the above passages. The demons who are now Satans emissaries could well be the spirits of the pre-Adamites. At any rate they are not part of the creation at the time of Adam. Thus Isaiah teaches the the Earth was inhabited before Adam and was ruled by Lucifer, whos' kingdom was overthrown when he rebelled.

There is so, so much more found in Scripture regarding this doctrin, many dozens of Scriptures support this. If this is false teaching, it amuses me that no one comes up with nothing more than Noah's flood, which occured much later, did not compleatly destroy the Earth, shake mountains, turn them upside down, turned off the stars and the sun so that there was no light. God had already created the Heavens, they were in existence as well as the Earth only their lights were withheld from shining on the Earth thus causing darkness Gen. 1:2. There was no darkness during Noah's flood? There were men and animals on the earth before Noah's flood, and Noah and his family and the animals survived the flood and were on the Eart after it?

That the Earth ONLY was (became) without form and void (Hebrew tohu vabobu, litterally wast and ruin or desolate and empty), as in Gen. 1:2. That there were mountains of Earth that were shaken and turned upside down by an earthquake so severe, which no doubt caused the remains of animals to be deposited in the very depths of the Earth beneath many layers of solid rock, such as are now been found. Noah's flood never buried animals hundreds of meters beneath solid rock.

Many other scriptures apart from those above can be presented to prove the doctrin of a pre-Adamite world.

To try and put this in a nutshell, God created the heavens first, then the Earth, all in the beginning or in the dateless past (Gen. 1:1; Job 38:4-7). He caused the heavens and the Earth to be inhabited and gave Lucifer control of the Earth-kingdom, don't believe me, read, (Coll. 1:15-18; Rev. 12:12; Ezek. 28:11-18; Isa. 14:12-14).

Lucifer ruled the earth for God for an unknown period before he rebelled and invaded heaven to try and dethrone God. Not my idea, read (Ezek. 28:11-18; Isa. 14:12-14). He was defeated and his kingdom on Earth was destroyed by a flood and the fierce anger of God (Gen. 1:2; Jer. 4:23-26; Ps. 104:5-9; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).

The Earth was turned upside down, a process which caused all the present formations of the Earth. The flood remained on the Earth for an unknown period of time, and then God in six days restored the Earth to a habitable state and made Adam and Eve and his creation to carry out the original plan of God concerning the Earth (Gen. 1:3-2:25).

Lucifer, now called Satan, and the spirit rebels caused man to fall, and they regained dominion of the earth through Adam's submission (2 Cor. 11:3; Eph. 2:1-3; 6:10-18; Rom. 5:12-21). They have been in control ever since and will be in control untill the second coming of Christ, who will put down all rebellion in the Millennium and make a New Heavens and a New Earth wherein dwelleth all righteousness forever (1 Cor. 15:24-28; Rev. 19:11-22:5). Why does science show the earth to be many millions of years old and the Bible "(allegedly)" says it is only six thousand years old? So, as with everything missunderstood in Scripture men call what they do not understand a theory. Hence, the gap theory, or even a herecy. But there was a gap and its no theory. Scripture shows there was a creation "in the beginning" and then a re-creation.

If we take the time to carefully read all the Scriptures regarding this doctrin and not just skim over them retaining old knowledge in the mind, and the READ these below, which backs up what is said, and see for yourselves

You see, God spoke, and as soon as the materials were made, God created and formed with His hands the heavens, with all its light and darkness first, then the Earth, all in the beginning, or in the dateless past (Gen. 1:1; Job 38:4-7). God created the heavens and the earth to be inhabited and He gave Lucifer control of the Earth kingdom (Col. 1:15-18; Rev. 12:12; Ezek. 28:11-18; Isa. 14:12-14). Lucifer obeyed God and ruled for an unknown time before he rebelled and invaded heaven to try and de-throne (Ezek 28:11-18; Isa. 14:12-14).

Naturally Lucifer was defeated, and his kingdom on the earth was totally destroyed by a flood and by the fierce anger of God (Gen. 1;2; Jer. 4:23-26; Ps. 104:5-9; 2 Pet. 3:5-6), hence the severe geological contortions of the earth's crust, vast deposits of bones in various places world wide, fossiles thousands or millions of years old etc. The earth was turned upside down in this process, ever wondered why the moon is poc marked by countless craters, and yet we never see anything plowing into it these days causing such destruction. What about the other dead planets in our immediate solar system? The flood God caused to cover the earth remained for an unknown period of time, and then God, in six days restored the earth to a habitable state and made Adam and his creation to carry out the original plan of God conserning the Earth (Gen. 1:3-2:25).

Lucifer and his spirit rebels caused man to fall and by this regained dominion of the earth through Adams submission (2 Cor. 11:3; Eph. 2:1-3; 6:10-18; Rom. 5:12-21). Lucifer has been in control ever since and he will remain in control untill the second coming of Jesus Christ who will put down all rebellion in the Millennium. God will then finally make a New heavens and a New Earth wherein dwelleth righteousness forever (1 Cor. 15:24-28; Rev. 19:11-22:5).

This doctrin is too simple for most men to understand, so they reject it.

Now, 2 Peter 3:5-7 expresses this clearly in plain human language, "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing (emerging) out of the water and in the water:

Whereby the world THAT THEN WAS, being overflowed with water, PERISHED:
But the heavens and the Earth, WHICH ARE NOW, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

This is where people become confused and say the world "that then was," was the world before Noah's flood, but this cannot be because:

If the world that THAT THEN WAS" is that between Adam and the flood of Noah, then God created The heavens and the Earth WHICH ARE NOW" since the flood of Noah. Noah and his family lived prior to his flood and after it. The world "THAT THEN WAS PERISHED" and everything in it also perished. What change could Noah's flood make to the heavens? None, for floods on Earth can never cover the heavens. The earth, vegetation, the heavens, all remained the same after Noah's flood.

Peter, in (2 Peter 3:3-7) taught that scoffers were totally ignorant of the flood that destroyed the social system and the earth "that then was" (lucifers flood). These scoffers all knew of Noah's flood and still know today. This proves that the truth of the flood that destroyed the original creation was hidden from them, while they knew about Noah's flood.

What was it that the scoffers were ignorant of unless it was the destruction of the social system before Adam?

This is the doctrin of which men are still ignorant of, which they call "the gap theory." Peter said that the scoffers were willingly ignorant of this truth showing that it is a clear doctrin of Scripture if men would stop being ignorant of it. There are many Scriptures that make this doctrin clear; so "If any man wants to be ignorant, let him be ignorant," as Paul expressed in (1 Cor. 14:38).

Peter said these scoffers of the last days, the days we are in now, since Noah, would be ignorant of the fact that the heavens were of old; that the social system ruled by Lucifer on the old Earth perished by water; that the heavens and the Earth since the six days of restoration are kept in store to be purified again- the next time by fire; that the Lord is not slack concerning His promises of final restoration of the earth to its third perfect state; and that God was longsuffering to all men, not willing that any should perish, but all come to repentance.

[Ironman]

God, in His anger destroyed all life on the original Earth by flood, turned off the lights and shut it down until He decided to re-create it, make it habitable again for mankind before creating Adam and Eve about 6000 years ago.

Scriptural proof there were two floods on this earth, Lucifers flood which I will post as . 'L,F.'

And Noahs flood which I will post as . 'N.F.'

L.F. Earth made waste (Gen. 1:2; Jer. 4:23-26; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. Earth not made waste (Gen. 8:11-12, 22 ; Heb. 11:7 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. Earth made empty (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23).
N.F. Earth not made empty (Gen. 6:18-22 ; 8:16).

L.F. Earth made totally dark (Gen. 1:2-5 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Not made totally dark (Gen. 8:6-22)

L.F. No light from heaven (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Light from heaven (Gen. 8:6-22).

L.F. No day and night (Gen. 1:2-5).
N.F. Day and night (Gen. 8:1-22).

L.F. All vegetation destroyed Gen. 1:2 ; 2:5-6 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Vegetation not destroyed (Gen. 8:11, 21 ; 9:3, 20).

L.F. No continued abating of the waters off the earth (Gen. 1:6-12).
N.F. Continued abating of the waters from the earth by evaporation (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. Waters taken off the earth in one day (Gen. 1:10).
N.F. Months of waters abating off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. God supernaturally takes waters off the earth (Gen. 1:6-12).
N.F. Natural work of evaporation of the waters off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. No rebuke or miraculous work in fled away (Gen. 1:6-12 ; Ps. 104:7).
N.F. No rebuke or miraculous work is taking waters off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. The waters on earth in Gen. 1:2, hasted away when rebuked (Gen. 1:6-2 ; Ps. 104:9).
N.F. The bounds already eternally set for waters in Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. All fish were totally destroyed in flood of Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. No fish were destroyed of created again after Noah's flood (Gen. 1:20-23 ; 6:18-22).

L.F. No Fowls left on the earth after (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Fowls were left after Noah's flood (Gen. 6:20 ; 8:7-17).

L.F. No animals left after (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. Some of all animals kept alive (Gen. 6:20 ; 8:17 ; 9:2-4, 10-16).

L.F. No man left on earth in Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. Eight men and women left after Noah's flood (Gen. 6:18 ; 8:15-22 ; 9:1-16 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. No social system left at all in Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. A social system left after Noah's flood (Gen. 8:15-22 ; 9:1-16 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. No ark made to save men in Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. An ark made to save men and animals alive (Gen. 6:8-8 : 22 ; 9:1-16 ; Heb. 11:7).

L.F. Cause: fall of Lucifer, now Satan (Isa. 14:12-14; Jer. 4:23-26; Ezek. 28:11-17 ; Luke 10:18).
N.F. Cause: wickedness of men (Gen. 6:5-13) ; and fallen angels (Gen. 6:1-4; Jude 6-7 ; 2 Pet. 2:4).

L.F. Result: became necessary to make new life on earth (Gen. 1:3-2 : 25 ; Isa. 45:18 ; Eph. 3:11).
N.F. Results: no new creation made, for all men and animals were not destroyed (Gen. 6:18-8 : 22 ; 9:1-16).

[Ray]

WHEN WAS "IN THE BEGINNING? Was it Gen. 1:1, or John 1:1-3. ?

God is a creator and has been creating throughout eternity past and He will continue creating into eternity future. The Earth was inhabited long before Adam and was ruled by Lucifer until, "Iniquity was found in him.

Lucifer was a fallen angel when he was allowed by God to enter Eden to tempt Adam to see if Adam would remain faithful.

Lucifer was the ruler of the Earth before Adam and Eve were created. It was the Pre-Adamite world.

Scripture shows that originally, God gave Lucifer control of the Earth kingdom (Rev. 12:12; Ezek. 28:11-18; Isa. 14:12-14).
Lucifer obeyed God and ruled for an unknown time before "Iniquity was found in him.

Before Adam Lucifer was the ruler of the Earth.

God is taking about Lucifer in these Scriptures. He was a perfect created angelic arc angel; "Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee" (Ezek. 28:13-15).

Lucifer wanted to control the universe and knock God off His throne. He over a long period of time convinced one third of God's angels to rebell with him and they rebelled against God and His universal rule, and invaded heaven to try and de-throne God Himself. (Ezek 28:11-18; Isa. 14:12-14).

Naturally Lucifer was defeated, and his kingdom on the earth was totally destroyed by a flood and by the fierce anger of God (Gen. 1;2; Jer. 4:23-26; Ps. 104:5-9; 2 Pet. 3:5-6), hence the severe geological contortions of the earth's crust, vast deposits of bones in various places world wide, fossiles thousands or millions of years old etc. The earth was turned upside down in this process, ever wondered why the moon is poc marked by countless craters, and yet we never see anything plowing into it these days causing such destruction. What about the other dead planets in our immediate solar system? The flood God caused to cover the earth remained for an unknown period of time, and then God, in six days restored the earth to a habitable state and made Adam and his creation to carry out the original plan of God conserning the Earth (Gen. 1:3-2:25).

Lucifer and his spirit rebels caused man to fall and by this regained dominion of the earth through Adams submission (2 Cor. 11:3; Eph. 2:1-3; 6:10-18; Rom. 5:12-21). Lucifer has been in control ever since and he will remain in control untill the second coming of Jesus Christ who will put down all rebellion in the Millennium. God will then finally make a New heavens and a New Earth wherein dwelleth righteousness forever (1 Cor. 15:24-28; Rev. 19:11-22:5).

This doctrin is too simple for most men to understand, so they reject it.

Now, 2 Peter 3:5-7 expresses this clearly in plain human language, "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing (emerging) out of the water and in the water:

Whereby the world THAT THEN WAS, being overflowed with water, PERISHED:
But the heavens and the Earth, WHICH ARE NOW, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

This is where people become confused and say the world "that then was," was the world before Noah's flood, but this cannot be because:

If the world that THAT THEN WAS" is that between Adam and the flood of Noah, then God created The heavens and the Earth WHICH ARE NOW" since the flood of Noah. Noah and his family lived prior to his flood and after it. The world "THAT THEN WAS PERISHED" and everything in it also perished. What change could Noah's flood make to the heavens? None, for floods on Earth can never cover the heavens. The earth, vegetation, the heavens, all remained the same after Noah's flood.

Peter, in (2 Peter 3:3-7) taught that scoffers were totally ignorant of the flood that destroyed the social system and the earth "that then was" (lucifers flood). These scoffers all knew of Noah's flood and still know today. This proves that the truth of the flood that destroyed the original creation was hidden from them, while they knew about Noah's flood.

What was it that the scoffers were ignorant of unless it was the destruction of the social system before Adam?

This is the doctrin of which men are still ignorant of, which they call "the gap theory." Peter said that the scoffers were willingly ignorant of this truth showing that it is a clear doctrin of Scripture if men would stop being ignorant of it. There are many Scriptures that make this doctrin clear; so "If any man wants to be ignorant, let him be ignorant," as Paul expressed in (1 Cor. 14:38).

Peter said these scoffers of the last days, the days we are in now, since Noah, would be ignorant of the fact that the heavens were of old; that the social system ruled by Lucifer on the old Earth perished by water; that the heavens and the Earth since the six days of restoration are kept in store to be purified again- the next time by fire; that the Lord is not slack concerning His promises of final restoration of the earth to its third perfect state; and that God was longsuffering to all men, not willing that any should perish, but all come to repentance. In Isa. 14:12-14 we have statements which cannot possibly of an earthly King. The passage is universally refering to the fall of Satan. We can quote it and note the facts.

"How art thou fallen from Heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which dist weaken the nations! For thou art hast said in thine heart, I WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN, I WILL EXALT MY THRONE above the stars of God: I WILL sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I WILL ascend above the heights of the clouds; I WILL BE like the most High," Now note the following facts this passage proves of Satan:

1. That his name is Lucifer.

2. That he was a son of the morning, and therefore, no earthly man.

3. That he fell from Heaven. This could never be spoken of a man. Satan is the only person in all Scripture who is spoken of as falling from Heaven (Luke 10:18).

4. That he was cut down to the ground in his fall.

5. That he weakened the nations on Earth.

6. That he was exalted in his heart.

7. That he invaded hHeaven where God rules.

8. That he was a KING, for he had a Throne and SUBJECTS over whom he ruled.

9. That he wanted to exalt his kingdom above the clouds, stars, and into Heaven itself to dethrone God.

10. That he wanted to be worshiped in the congregation of God (Ps. 72:2; 82:1; Isa. 6:1).

11. That he led a rebellion against God but was defeated.

12. That his kingdom was on Earth, or he never could have tried to ascend above the clouds, stars, and into Heaven. When a kingdom is located under the clouds it has to be on the Earth.

13. That the ground, clouds, stars, and Heaven were already created.

14. That it had to be before Adam, for this was not the position of Lucifer when he was in Adam's Eden. Adam had dominion at that time. Lucifer had no kingdom on the Earth at the time of Adam and he has not had one since in the sense of a visible personal rule on Earth. He has only ruled through others since Adam's day; so this must refer to a time before Adam.

15. That he was not in Heaven when he rebelled, else he could not have desired to ascend into Heaven. He was under the stars, or he could not have desired to be exalted above the stars. He was under the clouds, or he could not have desired to ascend above them.

16. That God's throne is located in the north part of the universe (Psalms 75:6-7). Thus, this passage proves the location of Satan's original kingdom and the time of his fall. It was located on Earth, and his fall was before Adam, for he was al;reday a fallen creature when he entered Adam' Eden.

In Coll. 1:15-18 we read of Christ creating thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers in Heaven and on Earth. They were located somewhere in the heavens and on the Earth. Lucifer was given a kingdom here on Earth, as proved by the passages cited above. His own subjects were earthly creatures of various kinds which were destroyed when the flood of Gen. 1:2 came upon the Earth. God created the Earth to be inhabited by earthly creatures (Isa. 45:18). They are called "nations" in the above passages. The demons who are now Satans emissaries could well be the spirits of the pre-Adamites. At any rate they are not part of the creation at the time of Adam. Thus Isaiah teaches the the Earth was inhabited before Adam and was ruled by Lucifer, whos' kingdom was overthrown when he rebelled.

There is so, so much more found in Scripture regarding this doctrin, many dozens of Scriptures support this. If this is false teaching, it amuses me that no one comes up with nothing more than Noah's flood, which occured much later, did not compleatly destroy the Earth, shake mountains, turn them upside down, turned off the stars and the sun so that there was no light. God had already created the Heavens, they were in existence as well as the Earth only their lights were withheld from shining on the Earth thus causing darkness Gen. 1:2. There was no darkness during Noah's flood? There were men and animals on the earth before Noah's flood, and Noah and his family and the animals survived the flood and were on the Eart after it?

That the Earth ONLY was (became) without form and void (Hebrew tohu vabobu, litterally wast and ruin or desolate and empty), as in Gen. 1:2. That there were mountains of Earth that were shaken and turned upside down by an earthquake so severe, which no doubt caused the remains of animals to be deposited in the very depths of the Earth beneath many layers of solid rock, such as are now been found. Noah's flood never buried animals hundreds of meters beneath solid rock.

Many other scriptures apart from those above can be presented to prove the doctrin of a pre-Adamite world.

To try and put this in a nutshell, God created the heavens first, then the Earth, all in the beginning or in the dateless past (Gen. 1:1; Job 38:4-7). He caused the heavens and the Earth to be inhabited and gave Lucifer control of the Earth-kingdom, don't believe me, read, (Coll. 1:15-18; Rev. 12:12; Ezek. 28:11-18; Isa. 14:12-14).

Lucifer ruled the earth for God for an unknown period before he rebelled and invaded heaven to try and dethrone God. Not my idea, read (Ezek. 28:11-18; Isa. 14:12-14). He was defeated and his kingdom on Earth was destroyed by a flood and the fierce anger of God (Gen. 1:2; Jer. 4:23-26; Ps. 104:5-9; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).

The Earth was turned upside down, a process which caused all the present formations of the Earth. The flood remained on the Earth for an unknown period of time, and then God in six days restored the Earth to a habitable state and made Adam and Eve and his creation to carry out the original plan of God concerning the Earth (Gen. 1:3-2:25).

Lucifer, now called Satan, and the spirit rebels caused man to fall, and they regained dominion of the earth through Adam's submission (2 Cor. 11:3; Eph. 2:1-3; 6:10-18; Rom. 5:12-21). They have been in control ever since and will be in control untill the second coming of Christ, who will put down all rebellion in the Millennium and make a New Heavens and a New Earth wherein dwelleth all righteousness forever (1 Cor. 15:24-28; Rev. 19:11-22:5). Why does science show the earth to be many millions of years old and the Bible "(allegedly)" says it is only six thousand years old? So, as with everything missunderstood in Scripture men call what they do not understand a theory. Hence, the gap theory, or even a herecy. But there was a gap and its no theory. Scripture shows there was a creation "in the beginning" and then a re-creation.

If we take the time to carefully read all the Scriptures regarding this doctrin and not just skim over them retaining old knowledge in the mind, and the READ these below, which backs up what is said, and see for yourselves

You see, God spoke, and as soon as the materials were made, God created and formed with His hands the heavens, with all its light and darkness first, then the Earth, all in the beginning, or in the dateless past (Gen. 1:1; Job 38:4-7). God created the heavens and the earth to be inhabited and He gave Lucifer control of the Earth kingdom (Col. 1:15-18; Rev. 12:12; Ezek. 28:11-18; Isa. 14:12-14). Lucifer obeyed God and ruled for an unknown time before he rebelled and invaded heaven to try and de-throne (Ezek 28:11-18; Isa. 14:12-14).

Naturally Lucifer was defeated, and his kingdom on the earth was totally destroyed by a flood and by the fierce anger of God (Gen. 1;2; Jer. 4:23-26; Ps. 104:5-9; 2 Pet. 3:5-6), hence the severe geological contortions of the earth's crust, vast deposits of bones in various places world wide, fossiles thousands or millions of years old etc. The earth was turned upside down in this process, ever wondered why the moon is poc marked by countless craters, and yet we never see anything plowing into it these days causing such destruction. What about the other dead planets in our immediate solar system? The flood God caused to cover the earth remained for an unknown period of time, and then God, in six days restored the earth to a habitable state and made Adam and his creation to carry out the original plan of God conserning the Earth (Gen. 1:3-2:25).

Lucifer and his spirit rebels caused man to fall and by this regained dominion of the earth through Adams submission (2 Cor. 11:3; Eph. 2:1-3; 6:10-18; Rom. 5:12-21). Lucifer has been in control ever since and he will remain in control untill the second coming of Jesus Christ who will put down all rebellion in the Millennium. God will then finally make a New heavens and a New Earth wherein dwelleth righteousness forever (1 Cor. 15:24-28; Rev. 19:11-22:5).

This doctrin is too simple for most men to understand, so they reject it.

Now, 2 Peter 3:5-7 expresses this clearly in plain human language, "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing (emerging) out of the water and in the water:

Whereby the world THAT THEN WAS, being overflowed with water, PERISHED:
But the heavens and the Earth, WHICH ARE NOW, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

This is where people become confused and say the world "that then was," was the world before Noah's flood, but this cannot be because:

If the world that THAT THEN WAS" is that between Adam and the flood of Noah, then God created The heavens and the Earth WHICH ARE NOW" since the flood of Noah. Noah and his family lived prior to his flood and after it. The world "THAT THEN WAS PERISHED" and everything in it also perished. What change could Noah's flood make to the heavens? None, for floods on Earth can never cover the heavens. The earth, vegetation, the heavens, all remained the same after Noah's flood.

Peter, in (2 Peter 3:3-7) taught that scoffers were totally ignorant of the flood that destroyed the social system and the earth "that then was" (lucifers flood). These scoffers all knew of Noah's flood and still know today. This proves that the truth of the flood that destroyed the original creation was hidden from them, while they knew about Noah's flood.

What was it that the scoffers were ignorant of unless it was the destruction of the social system before Adam?

This is the doctrin of which men are still ignorant of, which they call "the gap theory." Peter said that the scoffers were willingly ignorant of this truth showing that it is a clear doctrin of Scripture if men would stop being ignorant of it. There are many Scriptures that make this doctrin clear; so "If any man wants to be ignorant, let him be ignorant," as Paul expressed in (1 Cor. 14:38).

Peter said these scoffers of the last days, the days we are in now, since Noah, would be ignorant of the fact that the heavens were of old; that the social system ruled by Lucifer on the old Earth perished by water; that the heavens and the Earth since the six days of restoration are kept in store to be purified again- the next time by fire; that the Lord is not slack concerning His promises of final restoration of the earth to its third perfect state; and that God was longsuffering to all men, not willing that any should perish, but all come to repentance.

Thanks Haz,
For the response. I know it must have taken a while to put down such a detailed account of what you believe
on this subject. Some of what you present I agree with and cannot be refuted with Scripture. But there is
some statements made in your response I would like to comment on when I have a little more time.