Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Bible engagement is not inherently a good thing. WHAT???

[bibleman]

What a beautiful list to make us sure the Bible is to be treated every day, with reverence etc.

http://deeperchristian.com/29ways-interact-bible/

Here is what you read on that page:

I encourage you, don’t just read through the list – take some time and read through (and study) the passages that correspond with each one.

Treat God’s Word as precious (1 Samuel 3:1)
Let God’s Word reside on your tongue (2 Samuel 23:2; Psalm 119:42; Luke 12:11-12)
Allow God’s Word to perform all that it promises, let it build the temple, let it be verified in your life, let it bring you the rest of God (1 Kings 8:20, 26, 56; 1 Corinthians 3:16)
Conform to the pattern for carrying the Holy Presence of God (1 Chronicles 15:15)
Praise God’s Word (Psalm 56:4, 10; Acts 13:48)
Publish (proclaim) God’s Word (Psalm 68:11; Acts 4:31; 8:4; 2 Timothy 4:2)
Heed (listen to) God’s Word (Psalm 103:20; 119:24; Isaiah 66:5; Luke 10:39; John 5:24)
Allow God’s Word to try your soul, purify your heart, and prune your life (Psalm 105:19; John 15:1-2,4)
Hide God’s Word in your heart – protect it as your most sacred possession – let it keep you from sin (Psalm 119:11; Colossians 3:16)
Delight yourself in His Word (Psalm 119:16, 24)
Never forget God’s Word (Psalm 119:16; John 15:20)
Keep God’s Word (Psalm 119:17, 101; John 14:23; Titus 1:9; 1 John 2:5)
God’s Word is to be our strength (Psalm 119:28)
We are to incline our heart to the Word (Psalm 119:36)
Trust in and build your life upon God’s Word (Psalm 119:42)
Hope in God’s Word (Psalm 119:81)
Search God’s Word (Psalm 119:82)
Love God’s Word and delight in its purity (Psalm 119:140)
Meditate upon God’s Word (Psalm 119:148)
Tremble before God’s Word (Isaiah 66:2,5)
Let God’s Word be the joy and rejoicing of your heart (Jeremiah 15:16)
God’s Word is to be our food, sustenance, and life (Matthew 4:4; Psalm 119:50; Jeremiah 15:16)
Be continually mindful of the Word, abiding in its reality and truth (John 15:4-5)
Receive God’s Word Gladly (Acts 2:41)
Receive God’s Word with all readiness – searching it daily (Acts 17:11)
Receive God’s Word in affliction (1 Thessalonians 1:6)
Receive God’s Word as the Word of God (1 Thessalonians 2:13)
Correctly understand, divide, and interpret (2 Timothy 2:15)
Be doers of the Word (James 1:22-23)

[branham1965]

I did not express myself well i suppose.

i have such a hard time on here.and tend to post the opposite of what im trying to say....

WHY
SOME HAVE AFFIRMED ITS THE EASIEST BOOK IN THE WORLD TO UNDERSTAND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!IT DOES NOT NEED TO BE INTERPRETED AT ALL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THERE ARE ONLY 33,000 DENOMINATIONS NOW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


CHECK AND SEE
IF REVEREND ANGLEY FEELS THAT WAY,PASTOR BIBLE . HE DOES NOT.

Bible Reading Destroys the Church (Part 1 of 2), by Paul Penley

Would Jesus promote personal Bible reading? You probably never thought to ask yourself that question.

Protestant Christians assume getting a Bible into everyone’s hand is a good thing. Christian donors pump hundreds of millions into Bible translation and distribution every year. With that money, Biblica, Wycliffe and The Seed Company crank out translations in new languages. Scripture Union promotes Bible reading plans. Faith Comes By Hearing and

YouVersion build out robust apps with audio Bibles. GoTandem even texts daily Bible verses selected for your season in life.

I wonder: Is all this cash and energy well spent? History says “no.”

How the Bible Broke Jesus’ Dream

Jesus had a dream. He envisioned a community of followers who embraced his way and each other. He prayed, “may they be one” (John 17:21). 34,000 church denominations later, his prayer goes unanswered.

Why? What fueled one man after another to split up the church? What made each group think they had the corner on truth and all others had erred? The answer is simple: The Bible.



The history of church division runs parallel to the proliferation of Bible translation. When leaders can individually interpret what the Bible really says, unity doesn’t stand a chance. The graph of church denominations and Bible translations (below) illustrates this dynamic. More Bibles, more languages, and more literacy equal more denominations.
Protestant Reformation: Hey, Everybody Do Your Own Thing, It’s Biblical!

For the first 1500 years of the church, major church denominations didn’t surpass single digits. The split between the Catholic Church (in the Western Roman Empire) and the Orthodox Church (in the East) was dubbed the “Great Schism” of 1054 AD. Why? Because major church splits were so rare. That all changed after the Protestant Reformation of the 16th century.

The Protestants hastened Bible translations into German, French, Spanish, English, etc. More Bibles in everyone’s home meant more individuals could decide what was biblical. So they started new denominations. The refrain Sola Scriptura unwittingly excused any man’s opinions about the Bible from the checks and balances of trusted interpretive traditions and a community of gifted Christian leaders. Me, Jesus and the Bible devalued elders and community.

The Bible + my preferred meaning = 34,000 church divisions.

How have we let that happen for 500 years?

Martin Luther’s Legacy: Individualistic Bible Interpretation

Martin Luther is the Protestant superhero. He stuck it to “the man”—the big man in Rome.

On October 31, 1517 he literally stuck his complaints about the Pope and priests on the Wittenberg church door. He called them out for selling salvation. He took away the church’s power to issue forgiveness via “pardon letters” and gave it back to God. And he didn’t stop there.

Luther wrote and taught boldly for the next 3 years. In the summer of 1519 he declared publicly, “The Bible does not give the Pope the exclusive right to interpret scripture.” Anybody can do it.

That claim did not go unnoticed. He was excommunicated from the church in 1520. In 1521, he was called before German authorities at the now famous “Diet of Worms” to face the consequences.

At the Diet of Worms, representatives of the Holy Roman Empire gave Luther one last chance to change his mind.Johann Eck, assistant to the Archbishop of Trier, laid out Luther’s controversial writings on a table. He asked Luther 2 simple questions: Are you the author and do you stand by their contents? Luther was prepared for the first question but not the second. He took credit for the writings, but he asked for a night to prepare an answer to the second question.

The next day Luther came prepared with his reply. His words would become legendary in Protestant circles. His words would embody the individualistic and existential route to determining truth that Protestants have promoted ever since. He said,

“I am bound by the Scriptures I have quoted and my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and will not recant anything, since it is neither safe nor right to go against conscience.”

Martin Luther was so proud of his cleverly crafted response that he saluted Johann Eck like a knight winning a bout. Eck was unimpressed. Luther’s self-proclaimed wit and wisdom would be foiled by Eck’s response.

“Martin, there is not one heresy which has torn apart the bosom of the church, which has not derived its origin from some interpretation of Scripture. The Bible itself is the * whence each innovator has drawn his deceptive arguments.”

Eck understood the devastating consequences of Luther’s paradigm. Although Luther was right to challenge the supreme authority of the Pope, he swung the Pendulum back too far. The authority to determine the meaning of scripture went from one man to every man. Now “I” and the “Scriptures” were in charge. If you deeply feel the Bible means something, then follow your conscience. That’s Luther’s paradigm, intentionally or unintentionally. The Word of God and the conscience of individual men became self-contained authorities.

The irony of Luther’s rejection of papal decrees and church councils escaped him. He thought he had attributed sole authority to Scripture, yet the Bible itself was formed and finalized by church councils (check out The Fourth Council of Carthage in 419 AD). The very books to which he bound himself rested on decisions of the early Catholic Church.
Later in life Luther’s extreme confidence in his opinions over and against those councils and the Scriptures they selected would become clear. He denigrated the value of Matthew, Mark and Luke and recommended the removal of James, Revelation, and other Bible books that did not suit him. His inner persuasion became the authority for who God is and what we should all believe.

Luther’s unintended legacy has been Bible readers turning their opinions into new versions of the faith. The Bible + my preferred meaning = 34,000 church divisions.

Should We Stop Promoting Personal Bible Reading?

Humanity is constantly threatened by the chaos recorded in Judges: “Everyone did what they felt was right” (Judges 21:25). A world full of independent and untrained Bible interpreters can biblically justify any personal opinion. A Bible in every language can lead just as much to the chaos of “create your own religion” as it does to the truth. Interpreting the Bible on your own does not only demonstrate trust in the Bible’s authority; it betrays radical trust in one’s self. We must interpret and act on the Bible’s message with care.

Should we stop promoting personal Bible reading because it has dashed Jesus’ dream of unity? Let me qualify my answer. If we don’t promote anything else to quell the confusion of “biblical” truths, the answer is yes. Bible engagement is not inherently a good thing.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed ... ul-penley/

Can you believe this! The Devil sure has confused some people!

Billy,

I don't think I have ever heard Ernest Angley say to NOT read the Bible!

Just the opposite. Pray, fast and live in the WORD!

[macca]

What a beautiful list to make us sure the Bible is to be treated every day, with reverence etc.

http://deeperchristian.com/29ways-interact-bible/

Here is what you read on that page:

I encourage you, don’t just read through the list – take some time and read through (and study) the passages that correspond with each one.

Treat God’s Word as precious (1 Samuel 3:1)
Let God’s Word reside on your tongue (2 Samuel 23:2; Psalm 119:42; Luke 12:11-12)
Allow God’s Word to perform all that it promises, let it build the temple, let it be verified in your life, let it bring you the rest of God (1 Kings 8:20, 26, 56; 1 Corinthians 3:16)
Conform to the pattern for carrying the Holy Presence of God (1 Chronicles 15:15)
Praise God’s Word (Psalm 56:4, 10; Acts 13:48)
Publish (proclaim) God’s Word (Psalm 68:11; Acts 4:31; 8:4; 2 Timothy 4:2)
Heed (listen to) God’s Word (Psalm 103:20; 119:24; Isaiah 66:5; Luke 10:39; John 5:24)
Allow God’s Word to try your soul, purify your heart, and prune your life (Psalm 105:19; John 15:1-2,4)
Hide God’s Word in your heart – protect it as your most sacred possession – let it keep you from sin (Psalm 119:11; Colossians 3:16)
Delight yourself in His Word (Psalm 119:16, 24)
Never forget God’s Word (Psalm 119:16; John 15:20)
Keep God’s Word (Psalm 119:17, 101; John 14:23; Titus 1:9; 1 John 2:5)
God’s Word is to be our strength (Psalm 119:28)
We are to incline our heart to the Word (Psalm 119:36)
Trust in and build your life upon God’s Word (Psalm 119:42)
Hope in God’s Word (Psalm 119:81)
Search God’s Word (Psalm 119:82)
Love God’s Word and delight in its purity (Psalm 119:140)
Meditate upon God’s Word (Psalm 119:148)
Tremble before God’s Word (Isaiah 66:2,5)
Let God’s Word be the joy and rejoicing of your heart (Jeremiah 15:16)
God’s Word is to be our food, sustenance, and life (Matthew 4:4; Psalm 119:50; Jeremiah 15:16)
Be continually mindful of the Word, abiding in its reality and truth (John 15:4-5)
Receive God’s Word Gladly (Acts 2:41)
Receive God’s Word with all readiness – searching it daily (Acts 17:11)
Receive God’s Word in affliction (1 Thessalonians 1:6)
Receive God’s Word as the Word of God (1 Thessalonians 2:13)
Correctly understand, divide, and interpret (2 Timothy 2:15)
Be doers of the Word (James 1:22-23)

That is very refreshing reading, nothing negative there, uplifting and solid.

[Grandfather]

I'm still puzzled at how many people have posted opinions about an opinion on the blog in question, yet no one has offered anything as to why his question and subsequent statement are wrong...

"Should we stop promoting personal Bible reading because it has dashed Jesus’ dream of unity? Let me qualify my answer. If we don’t promote anything else to quell the confusion of “biblical” truths, the answer is yes. Bible engagement is not inherently a good thing.
So what must we do to use the Bible correctly?"

Has personal Bible reading dashed the dream of unity? One need look no further than this forum to answer that question with a definite YES IT HAS. A quick look over the forum will show postings that draw a division between different Christian groups because they believe differently about portions of scripture. Some are simple loving disagreements where people agree to disagree, while others a hostile.

The author of the blog qualified his statement.... IF we don't promote anything else to quell the confusion. And to that position I agree, if personal Bible reading is not doing anything (directly or indirectly) to promote unity (ie quelling - to put and end to, to stop, to calm, to reduce) the confusion of "biblical truths" then the purpose of that reading is simply to support and encourage division among the body. It's one or the other. Which do you support?

[titus213]

Christian groups do not believe differently on the essentials of the faith; and where they do believe differently on the nonessentials of the faith, there is freedom to interpret the Bible as they see fit. The claims of the author of the blog are exaggerated to the nth degree. Most of the denominational splits are due to the flesh and politics, rather then disagreements over scripture to begin with.
On the other hand, personal Bible reading of the type encouraged by Luther and others was never viewed as something to be done apart from the fellowship of the local assembly of believers. This is where the admonition that no Scripture is of any private interpretation comes into play.

But to make a statement such as engagement with the Bible is not inherently a good thing, is to deny the fact that the Bible itself tells us that to read and study it is inherently a good thing, because the Bible is the very word of God and has the inherent ability to accomplish what he desires in us and produce faith in our hearts.

[Grandfather]

Christian groups do not believe differently on the essentials of the faith; and where they do believe differently on the nonessentials of the faith, there is freedom to interpret the Bible as they see fit.

I agree with you, at least what you have presented is the way it should be. As C S Lewis wrote: "One of the things that Christians are disagreed about is the importance of their disagreements. When two Christians of different denominations start arguing, it is usually not long before one asks where such-and-such a point ‘really matters’ and the other replies: ‘Matters? Why it’s absolutely essential." What some view as absolutely essential, others may not and it's not long before one side begins to mock the other.

The claims of the author of the blog are exaggerated to the nth degree. Most of the denominational splits are due to the flesh and politics, rather then disagreements over scripture to begin with.

Where some points, maybe even most, exaggerated? I'll give a nod to that, but I understand that is what a lot of bloggers, and writers in general do when they are setting up a point they wish to make. Where most splits due to "flesh and politics", again I'll agree, but I will continue by saying those that caused those splits and divisions found their self-justification in some use/misuse of scripture. Which only plays to the blogger's point, scripture reading was not done to promote unity, but instead to excuse and even justify division.

On the other hand, personal Bible reading of the type encouraged by Luther and others was never viewed as something to be done apart from the fellowship of the local assembly of believers. This is where the admonition that no Scripture is of any private interpretation comes into play.

Again, I agree and I believe this is the point the blogger was making. I believe that you and I could give a number of examples where people have not followed the simple advice you have given and set out to divide instead of unite. They have looked to build their own kingdom instead of His. They have refused to listen to others, leaders, peers, even close friends and family.

So, while I may not agree with the examples the author used, I cannot disagree with the point he made: " If we don’t promote anything else to quell the confusion of “biblical” truths, the answer is yes. Bible engagement is not inherently a good thing." It all hinges on that first word... IF.

Also, some need to understand he does not say that Bible reading is not a good thing!!!! He says it is not INHERETENTLY (by natural character or ability) a good thing. Those are two different viewpoints

[titus213]

Also, some need to understand he does not say that Bible reading is not a good thing!!!! He says it is not INHERETENTLY (by natural character or ability) a good thing. Those are two different viewpoints

And he is mistaken, as I said. The Bible claims to be inherently valuable to read, meditate upon, and live by. Reading it certainly is a good thing by virtue of its inherent, natural character and ability.

[Grandfather]

Also, some need to understand he does not say that Bible reading is not a good thing!!!! He says it is not INHERETENTLY (by natural character or ability) a good thing. Those are two different viewpoints

And he is mistaken, as I said. The Bible claims to be inherently valuable to read, meditate upon, and live by. Reading it certainly is a good thing by virtue of its inherent, natural character and ability.

We will have to agree to disagree on that point. For me I agree with your statement... the Bible not only claims, but is inherently valuable to read, meditate and live by.... however that does not mean that the act of reading it is not inherently good, in and of itself. For if it, the reading of the Bible which is different from the Bible itself, was inherently good, then by natural character and or ability, there would not be "non-good" to come from reading it. However, we have already agreed that splits, divisions and disagreements of various severity, have occurred from people reading the Bible.

Reading the Bible is good, even possibly inherently good, IF and WHEN it is approached within the parameters that God has set forth, but without those guidelines, instructions, admonishments, then reading it does not have any inherent goodness as shown by the disagreements, disunity, divisions that have come out of those readings.

[titus213]

Isaiah 55:10-13
"10 For as the rain cometh down,
and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither,
but watereth the earth,
and maketh it bring forth and bud,
that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth:
it shall not return unto me void,
but it shall accomplish that which I please,
and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
- - - - ------
Heb. 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

[macca]

Isaiah 55:10-13
"10 For as the rain cometh down,
and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither,
but watereth the earth,
and maketh it bring forth and bud,
that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth:
it shall not return unto me void,
but it shall accomplish that which I please,
and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
- - - - -
Heb. 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Titus, you are ispirational
Putting those 2 texts together is so perfect.
That word for "twoedged" is 'distomos' which literaly means 'two-mouthed' and the sword is "machaira" which is the deadliest sword in the roman solders armoury.

It is this two-mouthed sword spoken of in Rev 1:16; ,,, and out of His mouth went a two-mouthed sword'
One sharpened edge of this sword (Machaira) came into being when the Word of God initially came from the mouth of God.
The second edge of this sword is added when the word of God comes out of our mouths (or Jesus's mouth as in rev)

now that makes want to shout

macca