Dake Bible Discussion BoardBible engagement is not inherently a good thing. WHAT???

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titus213
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Re: Bible engagement is not inherently a good thing. WHAT???

Post by titus213 »

By the way… This thread is not about response to the Bible. Look at the title of the thread: the blogger claims that Bible engagement is not inherently a good thing. The key word there is "engagement"; response comes after engagement with the word of God.
The blogger claims that Jesus had a "dream" of unity. He further claims that the "dream" has been destroyed by the Bible. Of course this is utter nonsense! Because he then goes on to explain that what he really means is that it has been destroyed by the abuse of the Bible. So his whole blog is full of inaccuracies and exaggerations to begin with.
I also find it interesting that the comments are posted on the blog of someone who is an Episcopal priest and a leader of the so-called "emergent church" movement. A questionable view of scripture fits right in with that whole background.



Grandfather
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Re: Bible engagement is not inherently a good thing. WHAT???

Post by Grandfather »

titus213 wrote:No, you have not done what I did. I have selected passages that deal with how the Bible functions in actual use. You have not provided anything except a few examples of people who rejected what the Bible says. That is not the same thing at all. God has given promises concerning his word and what it does, and how it does it. Those promises are true regardless of the motive of the person who engages the word of God. Those promises are not conditional.
Hmmm, those promises are true regardless of the motive? Is that what God's word says? James say you don't have because you ask amiss - ie wrong motive. James also says you must not wavier when you ask and if you do waver not to expect to get an answer. Those two passages are but a few in a great list that there are conditions

titus213 wrote:You state "And as I have pointed out and you have already agreed to, there are times when reading the Bible, with motives other than attempting to quell the confusion of "biblical" truths is not a good thing. So, intentionally or not, you have agreed with the authors position."

No I have not agreed with that and do not agree with that. Nowhere have I said anything that showed I do agree with that. I totally disagree with it. I have repeatedly said and will say it again that encountering the Bible is always inherently a good thing. The outcome or response to that engagement with the Bible has no bearing on the issue.
If the outcome or response has no bearing, then what are you using to determining that READING the Bible is inherently good?

titus213 wrote:Again you state, "He then continues with: "So what must we do to use the Bible correctly?" Which implies that there is a correct way, and an incorrect way to use the Bible. Again I think we both agree."

I disagree with the premise. He implies that nothing can be gained from engaging with the Bible unless and until a person knows how to use it "correctly".
No, he doesn't imply that nothing can be gained, he states that it is not inherently good, i.e. good regardless of the motives and the intention of the reader
titus213 wrote:And I am sure he has his opinions as to how to do that… opinions which may or may not agree with your opinions. But he is wrong at the very outset. The issue is not how we use the Bible, it is how the Holy Spirit uses the Bible!
Agreed! Now, will the Holy Spirit force, coerce or make someone comply with the purpose of Scripture against their will?

titus213 wrote:The Bible is not a dead, lifeless thing until someone is smart enough to know the "correct" way to use it. You really need to come to grips with Isaiah 55, Hebrews 4:12, first Peter 1, etc. You are seriously undermining the authority and power of the word of God by insisting that it can accomplish nothing unless it is "used correctly".
I have never said the Bible is dead or lifeless, to the contrary I've said the opposite. But to believe the promises of Scripture are unconditional? I'm not undermining the authority of His word because I understand the promises say "if" or "when" which make them conditional.

titus213 wrote: I wonder how in the world the preaching of the word by the prophet Jonah could bring revival to pagan Nineveh according to your view? They certainly knew nothing about any "correct" way to "use" the word of God! The inherent power of God's word simply worked exactly the way he promised that it would.
Hmmm, Jonah 3:5 - The Ninevites believed God. The inherent power of God's word simply worked because they BELIEVED, would there have been revival if they refused to believe? I don't think so. So, there was a "correct" way... to believe it.



victoryword
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Re: Bible engagement is not inherently a good thing. WHAT???

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titus213
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Re: Bible engagement is not inherently a good thing. WHAT???

Post by titus213 »

"Hmmm, those promises are true regardless of the motive? Is that what God's word says?"

Yes. Isaiah 55, Heb 4, etc are straightforward statements of fact regarding how God's word operates.
There are no conditions given. Motive is not an issue.

" James say you don't have because you ask amiss - ie wrong motive. James also says you must not wavier when you ask and if you do waver not to expect to get an answer. Those two passages are but a few in a great list that there are conditions"

And they are passages which have nothing to do with the word of God or how it operates. James is talking about answers to prayer. You are trying to compare apples and oranges.

"If the outcome or response has no bearing, then what are you using to determining that READING the Bible is inherently good?"

As I have said already over and over again, any encounter with the word of God is inherently good because as Isaiah 55 says God's word never returns void. It always accomplishes the purpose for which he sent it. And his purposes are inherently good.

"I have never said the Bible is dead or lifeless, to the contrary I've said the opposite. But to believe the promises of Scripture are unconditional? I'm not undermining the authority of His word because I understand the promises say "if" or "when" which make them conditional."

As I said up above, the passages that describe how the Bible operates have no conditions attached. There is no if or when. They are simple matter of fact descriptions that God has given us.

"Hmmm, Jonah 3:5 - The Ninevites believed God. The inherent power of God's word simply worked because they BELIEVED, would there have been revival if they refused to believe? I don't think so. So, there was a "correct" way... to believe it."

You have it precisely backward! They believed because the power of God's word worked. Their belief didn't make the power of the word work, the power of the word is what made their faith work. If the power of the word required our faith it would not have inherent power now, would it? Its power would be derivative.

Fundamental Bible truth: Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. It is the word that produces faith, not the other way around!



Grandfather
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Re: Bible engagement is not inherently a good thing. WHAT???

Post by Grandfather »

titus213 wrote:You have it precisely backward! They believed because the power of God's word worked. Their belief didn't make the power of the word work, the power of the word is what made their faith work. If the power of the word required our faith it would not have inherent power now, would it? Its power would be derivative.

Fundamental Bible truth: Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. It is the word that produces faith, not the other way around!

Think about it this way.... if your premise is true, then everyone would get saved every time they heard the Word of God preached.



titus213
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Re: Bible engagement is not inherently a good thing. WHAT???

Post by titus213 »

No, because as Dake explains God sends the message, but He does not obligate people to accept and obey it. The gift is always offered, but may be resisted. Nevertheless, the word always does it's work first. It has priority. It brings God's grace to a person. But it is not irresistible grace.

God’s word IS (not may become under certain conditions) living, active, and sharper than any two-edged sword. It penetrates to the point that it separates the soul from the spirit and the joints from the marrow. It’s able to judge the heart’s thoughts and intentions. No creature is hidden from it, but rather everything is naked and exposed to the eyes of the one to whom we have to give an answer.

Just as the rain and the snow come down from the sky
and don’t return there without watering the earth,
making it conceive and yield plants
and providing seed to the sower and food to the eater,
so is my word that comes from my mouth;
it does not return to me empty.
Instead, it does what I want,
and accomplishes what I intend.



titus213
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Re: Bible engagement is not inherently a good thing. WHAT???

Post by titus213 »

No, because as Dake explains God sends the message, but He does not obligate people to accept and obey it. The gift is always offered, but may be resisted. Nevertheless, the word always does it's work first. It has priority. It brings God's grace to a person. But it is not irresistible grace.

God’s word IS (not may become under certain conditions) living, active, and sharper than any two-edged sword. It penetrates to the point that it separates the soul from the spirit and the joints from the marrow. It’s able to judge the heart’s thoughts and intentions. No creature is hidden from it, but rather everything is naked and exposed to the eyes of the one to whom we have to give an answer.

Just as the rain and the snow come down from the sky
and don’t return there without watering the earth,
making it conceive and yield plants
and providing seed to the sower and food to the eater,
so is my word that comes from my mouth;
it does not return to me empty.
Instead, it does what I want,
and accomplishes what I intend.



titus213
Do Good to Them that Hate You
Posts: 470
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Re: Bible engagement is not inherently a good thing. WHAT???

Post by titus213 »

No, because as Dake explains God sends the message, but He does not obligate people to accept and obey it. The gift is always offered, but may be resisted. Nevertheless, the word always does it's work first. It has priority. It brings God's grace to a person. But it is not irresistible grace.

God’s word IS (not may become under certain conditions) living, active, and sharper than any two-edged sword. It penetrates to the point that it separates the soul from the spirit and the joints from the marrow. It’s able to judge the heart’s thoughts and intentions. No creature is hidden from it, but rather everything is naked and exposed to the eyes of the one to whom we have to give an answer.

Just as the rain and the snow come down from the sky
and don’t return there without watering the earth,
making it conceive and yield plants
and providing seed to the sower and food to the eater,
so is my word that comes from my mouth;
it does not return to me empty.
Instead, it does what I want,
and accomplishes what I intend.



Grandfather
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Re: Bible engagement is not inherently a good thing. WHAT???

Post by Grandfather »

titus213 wrote:No, because as Dake explains God sends the message, but He does not obligate people to accept and obey it. The gift is always offered, but may be resisted. Nevertheless, the word always does it's work first. It has priority. It brings God's grace to a person. But it is not irresistible grace.

God’s word IS (not may become under certain conditions) living, active, and sharper than any two-edged sword. It penetrates to the point that it separates the soul from the spirit and the joints from the marrow. It’s able to judge the heart’s thoughts and intentions. No creature is hidden from it, but rather everything is naked and exposed to the eyes of the one to whom we have to give an answer.

Just as the rain and the snow come down from the sky
and don’t return there without watering the earth,
making it conceive and yield plants
and providing seed to the sower and food to the eater,
so is my word that comes from my mouth;
it does not return to me empty.
Instead, it does what I want,
and accomplishes what I intend.

Hmmmm. it always works, but sometimes it doesn't because people resist it. Yeah, that makes sense. NOT!!!!



titus213
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Re: Bible engagement is not inherently a good thing. WHAT???

Post by titus213 »

Grandfather wrote:
titus213 wrote:No, because as Dake explains God sends the message, but He does not obligate people to accept and obey it. The gift is always offered, but may be resisted. Nevertheless, the word always does it's work first. It has priority. It brings God's grace to a person. But it is not irresistible grace.

God’s word IS (not may become under certain conditions) living, active, and sharper than any two-edged sword. It penetrates to the point that it separates the soul from the spirit and the joints from the marrow. It’s able to judge the heart’s thoughts and intentions. No creature is hidden from it, but rather everything is naked and exposed to the eyes of the one to whom we have to give an answer.

Just as the rain and the snow come down from the sky
and don’t return there without watering the earth,
making it conceive and yield plants
and providing seed to the sower and food to the eater,
so is my word that comes from my mouth;
it does not return to me empty.
Instead, it does what I want,
and accomplishes what I intend.

Hmmmm. it always works, but sometimes it doesn't because people resist it. Yeah, that makes sense. NOT!!!!
I'm sorry you have a hard time "making sense" of what God says about his word and how it works . . . but I'm not surprised, because Isaiah 55 also reminds us:

My plans aren’t your plans,
nor are your ways my ways, says the Lord.
Just as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways,
and my plans than your plans.

Titus 2:11 makes it plain that God's grace offers, but does not coerce anyone: "For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people."



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