Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Last minute salvation is possible.

[Grandfather]

Titus, you jump through hoops to dismiss biblical accounts of people being raised from the dead. You want to make exceptions to rules, but only when it fits your theology. You have refused to tell us about those raised from the dead and given another chance at life, although you claimed no one gets a second chance. You refuse to tell us if they can change the position of judgment they had before they were raised. Positions such as: Can the saved be lost, can the lost be saved. If God raised some from the dead after judgment and gives them second chances what's to stop him from giving everyone a second chance.

But yet you accuse me of denying scripture when, with the exception of the "what if" question I asked and labeled speculative, I've supported each and every position with scripture. So, I ask, who is dancing? I'm not dancing around where they were after death, you are. I'm not dancing around second chances, you are.

So, give me scriptural evidence that refutes the scripture I gave you.

[titus213]

Titus, you jump through hoops to dismiss biblical accounts of people being raised from the dead. You want to make exceptions to rules, but only when it fits your theology. You have refused to tell us about those raised from the dead and given another chance at life, although you claimed no one gets a second chance. You refuse to tell us if they can change the position of judgment they had before they were raised. Positions such as: Can the saved be lost, can the lost be saved. If God raised some from the dead after judgment and gives them second chances what's to stop him from giving everyone a second chance.

But yet you accuse me of denying scripture when, with the exception of the "what if" question I asked and labeled speculative, I've supported each and every position with scripture. So, I ask, who is dancing? I'm not dancing around where they were after death, you are. I'm not dancing around second chances, you are.

So, give me scriptural evidence that refutes the scripture I gave you.

To the contrary. There are no hoops I need to jump through, since I refuse to speculate on exceptional, individual cases for which we have little or no information and then build doctrine on the silences of Scripture. I also make no exceptions to any rules. I simply recognize that what the Bible frequently teaches in clear passages cannot be undercut by obscure passages or (even worse) mere human speculation about those obscure passages!

It is a lie that I have refused to tell you about those raised from the dead and restored to life on earth. It is also a lie that I claimed no one gets a second chance.
I told you that there is nothing anyone can say about those people, neither you nor I, for the simple reason that we are not given any information about them after they died. There is nothing to tell you without mere guessing-games; something I advised is a foolish waste of time but which you apparently enjoy.

What I did insist on is that EVEN IF WE KNEW exactly how and why God dealt with them prior to restoring them to this life, it would not establish any basis for a doctrine of "second chance while dead" or a doctrine of "delayed judgement so people can rethink this whole God thing and cry out to him", because God's out of the ordinary dealings with a few cannot overthrow what he says about his usual dealings with the masses.

I have not noticed you offering any scripture to support your speculations -- not surprised by that, since there are none that do. I have only seen you list some of the verses which refer to those raised from the dead. Nor have I seen you try to explain how Lazarus and the rich man were judged at the time they died; nor how Paul could speak as he does about the believer entering the Lord's presence at the time of death, etc.

So keep tap-dancing away . . . it's almost reaching the comical stage now. Sort of a dancing bear being given a second chance.

[Ironman]

Titus, you jump through hoops to dismiss biblical accounts of people being raised from the dead. You want to make exceptions to rules, but only when it fits your theology. You have refused to tell us about those raised from the dead and given another chance at life, although you claimed no one gets a second chance. You refuse to tell us if they can change the position of judgment they had before they were raised. Positions such as: Can the saved be lost, can the lost be saved. If God raised some from the dead after judgment and gives them second chances what's to stop him from giving everyone a second chance.

But yet you accuse me of denying scripture when, with the exception of the "what if" question I asked and labeled speculative, I've supported each and every position with scripture. So, I ask, who is dancing? I'm not dancing around where they were after death, you are. I'm not dancing around second chances, you are.

So, give me scriptural evidence that refutes the scripture I gave you.

To the contrary. There are no hoops I need to jump through, since I refuse to speculate on exceptional, individual cases for which we have little or no information and then build doctrine on the silences of Scripture. I also make no exceptions to any rules. I simply recognize that what the Bible frequently teaches in clear passages cannot be undercut by obscure passages or (even worse) mere human speculation about those obscure passages!

It is a lie that I have refused to tell you about those raised from the dead and restored to life on earth. It is also a lie that I claimed no one gets a second chance.
I told you that there is nothing anyone can say about those people, neither you nor I, for the simple reason that we are not given any information about them after they died. There is nothing to tell you without mere guessing-games; something I advised is a foolish waste of time but which you apparently enjoy.

What I did insist on is that EVEN IF WE KNEW exactly how and why God dealt with them prior to restoring them to this life, it would not establish any basis for a doctrine of "second chance while dead" or a doctrine of "delayed judgement so people can rethink this whole God thing and cry out to him", because God's out of the ordinary dealings with a few cannot overthrow what he says about his usual dealings with the masses.

I have not noticed you offering any scripture to support your speculations -- not surprised by that, since there are none that do. I have only seen you list some of the verses which refer to those raised from the dead. Nor have I seen you try to explain how Lazarus and the rich man were judged at the time they died; nor how Paul could speak as he does about the believer entering the Lord's presence at the time of death, etc.

So keep tap-dancing away . . . it's almost reaching the comical stage now. Sort of a dancing bear being given a second chance.

Hi titus213.

Agee, and my thoughts are drifting to Ephesians 2:1-5.

Ephesians 2:1, And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2, Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3, Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires1 of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4, But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Yes, we were all dead in sin but by Grace we are saved, NOW, in this life, not in some future time after being raised from the dead.

[titus213]

I agree that Revelation chapter 20 gives us a picture of the final judgment, as Dake calls it. It is when the temporary existence of the wicked dead in hell / Hades will become eternal separation in the "lake of fire". But we should also remember that Dake taught the immediate experience of conscious existence in either heaven or hell at the moment of death. He was no fan of the doctrine of "soul sleep" or any other doctrine which suggested either an unconscious existence in some unknown place or an opportunity for salvation after death. In classic dispensational style, Dake explains "death ends all probation for the one who dies . . . The righteous go to heaven to await the resurrection of the body; the wicked go to hell" to await the same.

So in that sense of a distinction between and separation of the righteous and the wicked, the final judgment is the official judicial proceeding and sentencing of those who have already been judged in a preliminary way at the time of their death.

[branham1965]

i agree with you.the so called intermediate state or a soul sleep period is not true.

I agree that Revelation chapter 20 gives us a picture of the final judgment, as Dake calls it. It is when the temporary existence of the wicked dead in hell / Hades will become eternal separation in the "lake of fire". But we should also remember that Dake taught the immediate experience of conscious existence in either heaven or hell at the moment of death. He was no fan of the doctrine of "soul sleep" or any other doctrine which suggested either an unconscious existence in some unknown place or an opportunity for salvation after death. In classic dispensational style, Dake explains "death ends all probation for the one who dies . . . The righteous go to heaven to await the resurrection of the body; the wicked go to hell" to await the same.

So in that sense of a distinction between and separation of the righteous and the wicked, the final judgment is the official judicial proceeding and sentencing of those who have already been judged in a preliminary way at the time of their death.

[branham1965]

I understand the great Mother Etter /Sister Maria Woodworth- Etter would go into trances.And folks in her meetings BEFORE THE PENTECOSTAL OUTPOURING in the 1900's .......... in the late 1800's would be saved ...healed...delivered and receive the Holy Spirit .....some would be flattened like dead people by the Power of God.others would go into trances.


in one of her meetings she was in a standing trance for ......THREE DAYS!!!!!!i dont know if she was breathing...forgive me i cant recall.she did not blink in 3 days.
it scared some folks half to death.

After the three days she picked up in the sentence she was speaking exactly where she was!!!!!!!!!!

She was a mighty woman of faith.i understand all the early Pentecostals wanted her in their meetings.

[DeafManHealing]

I know the Holy Spirit quickens your body through prayer and fasting but being in a trance for three days ?

[macca]

I know the Holy Spirit quickens your body through prayer and fasting but being in a trance for three days ?

A sign and a wonder that did the job the Holy Spirit desired, it brought glory to Jesus in drawing people
to the gospel message through His servant maria woodworth etta.
macca

[branham1965]

absolutely macca.
Dad Hagin talked about her.
She was revered as much as anyone in Pentecost.

Her books are sold here @ ministry helps for a reason.

I know the Holy Spirit quickens your body through prayer and fasting but being in a trance for three days ?

A sign and a wonder that did the job the Holy Spirit desired, it brought glory to Jesus in drawing people
to the gospel message through His servant maria woodworth etta.
macca

[DeafManHealing]

What do you mean by Grace opposes death ?