Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Last minute salvation is possible.

[Ironman]

Was I given a second chance here?
Roughly 45 years ago, long before I was born again and before I entered the mining industry, whilst driving a semi-trailer loaded with 25 tons of coal I'm traveling along the highway at about 50 miles per hour, about to overtake another semi-trailer about three truck lengths in front of me, when he decides to do a U-turn at the next break in the median strip, even though the sign says, "No U Turn." His vehicle is now across my lane, I hit the emergency brakes, pull on the trailer brakes as well, all too late, and I hit his vehicle smack bang into the duel 60 gallon fuel tanks on his right hand side.

All I remember is a violent explosion? then NOTHING AT ALL. No light, no sound, nothing.

I wake up and find myself lying on the wide median strip among the branches and shrubbery. Police, Fire fighters, Ambulance all there, down the road a little way. My truck prim mover is a wreck, the other is also a wreck. I brush myself off and walk down the strip and upon reaching the scene I am stopped by a police officer, who says, "You cannot go there, keep away, these is fuel every were and we fear a possible fire outbreak." I say, I'm the driver of that vehicle! He looks at me and tells me again to get going and stop wasting his time, or he will arrest me for hindering him in his duties. I again say, No truly I am the driver of that vehicle. He did not believe me until I pointed out the name of the company I drove for emblazoned on my shirt pocket.

I never had a scratch or mark on my entire body, my clothing, nothing! The officer thought the driver was trapped somewhere in the mangled wreckage! I know now that was a miracle. I also now know, had I died then, I was lost for sure!

Did God give me a second chance here?

[branham1965]

Haz

you had more than one incredible experience mate.you should write a book.

your angels were working triple overtime mate.

[branham1965]

Haz
YOU and big macca are the roughest of the rough.Your jobs were beyond dangerous.

The Hand of the Lord was with both of you cobbers.

Was I given a second chance here?
Roughly 45 years ago, long before I was born again and before I entered the mining industry, whilst driving a semi-trailer loaded with 25 tons of coal I'm traveling along the highway at about 50 miles per hour, about to overtake another semi-trailer about three truck lengths in front of me, when he decides to do a U-turn at the next break in the median strip, even though the sign says, "No U Turn." His vehicle is now across my lane, I hit the emergency brakes, pull on the trailer brakes as well, all too late, and I hit his vehicle smack bang into the duel 60 gallon fuel tanks on his right hand side.

All I remember is a violent explosion? then NOTHING AT ALL. No light, no sound, nothing.

I wake up and find myself lying on the wide median strip among the branches and shrubbery. Police, Fire fighters, Ambulance all there, down the road a little way. My truck prim mover is a wreck, the other is also a wreck. I brush myself off and walk down the strip and upon reaching the scene I am stopped by a police officer, who says, "You cannot go there, keep away, these is fuel every were and we fear a possible fire outbreak." I say, I'm the driver of that vehicle! He looks at me and tells me again to get going and stop wasting his time, or he will arrest me for hindering him in his duties. I again say, No truly I am the driver of that vehicle. He did not believe me until I pointed out the name of the company I drove for emblazoned on my shirt pocket.

I never had a scratch or mark on my entire body, my clothing, nothing! The officer thought the driver was trapped somewhere in the mangled wreckage! I know now that was a miracle. I also now know, had I died then, I was lost for sure!

Did God give me a second chance here?

[Ironman]

Haz

you had more than one incredible experience mate.you should write a book.

your angels were working triple overtime mate.

Hay billy, my angel sure is looking after me and my work mates! I'm sure God will let them know how lucky they were on this day!
macca may remember or have heard this, he was on another crew.
After a scheduled weekend washing plant maintainance down time, its Monday morning 7am, Day shift, I start my shift, my crew go down pit, I'm put on the Letourneau loader to feed raw coal to the washing plant until the 350 ton trucks start running. I do my safety checks, start her up, hit the coal stockpile, fill the bucket, about 80 tons raw coal, walk over to the hopper to drop the first bucket in when something tells me . . . . "STOP." I heard no audible voice but my brain got the message! I stopped, lowered the bucket safely to the ground, locked the loader and set the brakes lowered the ladder, climbed down, hoping I wasn't being silly, the trucks begin turning up ready to tip into the hopper,, "Whats up Haz???" Hang on I'm checking the hopper, I look down about 50 feet, well what do you know!!!!!

TWO CONTRACT BOILERMAKERS in the hopper merrily welding away! I call out, "What are you blokes doing in there?" No safety signs, nothing to let anyone know you blokes are in there?

Reply, "Were welding wear plates in the hoppers, been here all weekend!" I replied, You nearly met your maker boys, I'm about to drop in 80 tons of raw coal in there and there are three 350 ton trucks waiting to unload!" They nearly flapped their arms hard enough to fly out of there!

And that was not long after management and I argued about having safety signs put up if anyone is working in, on, or near the hoppers and conveyor belts! They never got the message did they?

[macca]

Haz

you had more than one incredible experience mate.you should write a book.

your angels were working triple overtime mate.

Hay billy, my angel sure is looking after me and my work mates! I'm sure God will let them know how lucky they were on this day!
macca may remember or have heard this, he was on another crew.
After a scheduled weekend washing plant maintainance down time, its Monday morning 7am, Day shift, I start my shift, my crew go down pit, I'm put on the Letourneau loader to feed raw coal to the washing plant until the 350 ton trucks start running. I do my safety checks, start her up, hit the coal stockpile, fill the bucket, about 80 tons raw coal, walk over to the hopper to drop the first bucket in when something tells me . . . . "STOP." I heard no audible voice but my brain got the message! I stopped, lowered the bucket safely to the ground, locked the loader and set the brakes lowered the ladder, climbed down, hoping I wasn't being silly, the trucks begin turning up ready to tip into the hopper,, "Whats up Haz???" Hang on I'm checking the hopper, I look down about 50 feet, well what do you know!!!!!

TWO CONTRACT BOILERMAKERS in the hopper merrily welding away! I call out, "What are you blokes doing in there?" No safety signs, nothing to let anyone know you blokes are in there?

Reply, "Were welding wear plates in the hoppers, been here all weekend!" I replied, You nearly met your maker boys, I'm about to drop in 80 tons of raw coal in there and there are three 350 ton trucks waiting to unload!" They nearly flapped their arms hard enough to fly out of there!

And that was not long after management and I argued about having safety signs put up if anyone is working in, on, or near the hoppers and conveyor belts! They never got the message did they?

God has had His hand on you for a long time Haz.
Someone had set you apart for salvation in intercessary faith filled prayer that would not be denied old mate.
God will not let you go Haz, just keep preaching and praying for Gods will in your life, you are a blessed man.

macca

[titus213]

Once again, Grandfather, you are doing a tap dance around the issues you are ACTUALLY bringing up, pretending you're not raising them at all!
Let's take a look:

You're the one jumping through hoops to make exceptions for those that have been raised from the dead. According to you..." judgement takes place at the time of death"

Not according to me . . . according to Jesus himself and the scripture passages you have been shown.

So I ask you again, where were these people? And for these people why couldn't they cry out prior to their judgment?

I have no idea where they were. And neither do you. That's the point. They are obviously exceptions to the norm. How/where/why God dealt with them as he did the Bible doesn't tell us. So all speculation by us is pointless. But their experience does not change the fact that scripture says judgement takes place based on a person's actions here and now and that it takes place at the time of death. There is no mention of them "calling out to God" so stop speculating. There is no mention of a state "prior to judgement" so stop speculating. Especially when your speculations are contrary to what God has clearly spoken. They had what we would even call today a "NEAR death experience". Death, both in the Bible and in current medical understanding, does not occur until a person has left this life and NOT been brought back to it.

And since they came back to life, explain how they were not given a second chance?

They were given a second chance. I never said they weren't. But it was a second chance IN THIS LIFE.

[Grandfather]

Once again, Grandfather, you are doing a tap dance around the issues you are ACTUALLY bringing up, pretending you're not raising them at all!
Let's take a look:

You're the one jumping through hoops to make exceptions for those that have been raised from the dead. According to you..." judgement takes place at the time of death"

Not according to me . . . according to Jesus himself and the scripture passages you have been shown.

So I ask you again, where were these people? And for these people why couldn't they cry out prior to their judgment?

YOU said judgment takes place IMMEDIATELY after death, not me, not the Bible. The Bible says "after this" which you want to say means immediately after saying that is the "natural understanding", however you ignore other instances of scripture that say "after this" and it was not immediately after, just plain "after"

I have no idea where they were. And neither do you. That's the point.

Excitedly right! Which is why I have not made an all encompassing statement such as immediate after death is judgment. You see, I don't have to account for where they were between death and judgment, but since you hold immediately after death is judgment your position requires you to fill in that gap.

They are obviously exceptions to the norm.

There you go, making another absolute statement. Taking your above statement as true then you have to believe people can be saved apart from the blood of Jesus Christ as that would be an "exception to the norm".

How/where/why God dealt with them as he did the Bible doesn't tell us. So all speculation by us is pointless. But their experience does not change the fact that scripture says judgement takes place based on a person's actions here and now and that it takes place at the time of death. There is no mention of them "calling out to God" so stop speculating. There is no mention of a state "prior to judgement" so stop speculating. Especially when your speculations are contrary to what God has clearly spoken. They had what we would even call today a "NEAR death experience". Death, both in the Bible and in current medical understanding, does not occur until a person has left this life and NOT been brought back to it.

Again you are absolutely correct in your reasoning, I just wonder why you don't apply the same reasoning to your own position. What does God's Word tell us? It tells us that after event "A" event "B" will occur. After DEATH there will be JUDGMENT. It doesn't say IMMEDIATELY - who is assuming that? Not me, YOU! And by assuming that you now have to account for those that come back to life, and for them you make further assumptions and say there are "exceptions to the norm". My position, that after means simply after, no time frame, could be immediate, could be days, but it is simply at a point after death, does not require any exceptions or additional assumptions.

My "speculation" doesn't add a thing to Gods word. It is no different than what Dake has done with his proof of a pre-Adamic world. He has taken scripture and filled in the "gaps" (no pun intended) with logical thought. It is your position of immediate judgment that requires speculation. You have to speculate as to what happened to those biblical accounts of people being raised from the dead especially since you believe they were already judged. (Remember your judgment immediately follows death.) My position doesn't have to. You have to account for Lazarus, the man of Elisah's bones, the servant that he lay on, those that Jesus raised, those mentioned in Hebrews 11, the graves that openned at the ressurection, those returned to life by answer prayer. NOT ME! According to my position, their judgment had not yet occurred, and I don't have to jump through hoops. I've said all along, NO ONE IS PROMISED a second chance. One persons judgment may be immediate after death, others may be years after death, the point is they both are still AFTER this (death) the judgment.

And since they came back to life, explain how they were not given a second chance?

They were given a second chance. I never said they weren't. But it was a second chance IN THIS LIFE.[/quote]

I won't even both going back and showing that you have tweaked your position. But will simply thank you, for either changing your mind or greatly clarifying your position

[Grandfather]

Once again, Grandfather, you are doing a tap dance around the issues you are ACTUALLY bringing up, pretending you're not raising them at all!

Really, lets go back and clarify those issues and see who is dancing.

Issue - People die and after death comes judgment

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment Hebrews 9:27 KJV

Issue - there are Biblical accounts of people being raised from the dead. Some moments after dying, some days after dying, some after being dead for unknown period of time. (Matt 27:52 - I Ki 17:17-24 - II Ki 4:20-37 - II Ki 13:21 - Mk 5:35-43 - Jn 11:1-44 - Acts 9:36-41 - Acts 20:7-12 - Matthew 10:8 - Hebrews 11:35)

The QUESTION I raised -- Is it possible to cry out to God between the moment of physical death and judgment.
The RESPONSE I was given -- After death the judgment, not a second chance to live on earth and be saved.

Now, we all know that the response is not valid. There are too many biblical accounts of people returning to life who are/were given a second chance to live on the earth. And according to the "free will" theological position that most on this board hold, during this second chance on earth these people could sin and lose their salvation, repent again and thus be saved again. Perhaps be saved for the first time or sin and not repent and be lost forever.

MY POSITION - According to the passage in Hebrews, judgment occurs at a point after death, not prior to death. That point after death is not fixed, it may be immediately or it may be delayed. No one is promised how soon, or how long, after death the judgment will occur. We are only promised that it will occur at a point after we die. So, these people had not been judged, even though they had been dead - therefore to say that judgment occurs IMMEDIATELY after dead is false.

MY QUESTION FOR SPECULATION - (note it is a question for speculation, not a position) Can people in the above state (dead, but not judged) cry out to be saved? It's a QUESTION that the Bible is not clear on. Clearly they were dead. Clearly they came back to life in their physical bodies. Clearly they had choices to make after returning to life. There is evidence to speculate about if they could cry out on both sides - yes and no.

WHAT I KNOW - there are no promises (for the purpose of this discussion) for what happens after one dies, except for judgment at some time. No one is promised a second chance, although some were given one. No one is promised a time period between after dying and judgment, although it appears some were given one. However, there is a vast difference between saying there is no second chance and not being promised one. There is a vast difference between saying judgment occurs immediately after death and at some point after death. I believe the first requires jumping through a lot of hoops, the second is simply reading the Bible literally.

[titus213]

Issue - People die and after death comes judgment

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment Hebrews 9:27 KJV

Issue - there are Biblical accounts of people being raised from the dead. Some moments after dying, some days after dying, some after being dead for unknown period of time. (Matt 27:52 - I Ki 17:17-24 - II Ki 4:20-37 - II Ki 13:21 - Mk 5:35-43 - Jn 11:1-44 - Acts 9:36-41 - Acts 20:7-12 - Matthew 10:8 - Hebrews 11:35)

The QUESTION I raised -- Is it possible to cry out to God between the moment of physical death and judgment.
The RESPONSE I was given -- After death the judgment, not a second chance to live on earth and be saved.

Now, we all know that the response is not valid. There are too many biblical accounts of people returning to life who are/were given a second chance to live on the earth.

Agreed.

MY POSITION - According to the passage in Hebrews, judgment occurs at a point after death, not prior to death. That point after death is not fixed, it may be immediately or it may be delayed. No one is promised how soon, or how long, after death the judgment will occur. We are only promised that it will occur at a point after we die. So, these people had not been judged, even though they had been dead - therefore to say that judgment occurs IMMEDIATELY after dead is false.

Wrong. Jesus taught that judgement is based on this life, not anything which takes place after. He confirmed this by sharing an actual experience of life-after-death in the account of the rich man and Lazarus. That account clearly shows judgement taking place at the time of death. Paul clearly states that being absent from the body means being present with the Lord for the Christian. That also means a judgement has taken place at the time of death. So your "position" is contrary to the Bible.

MY QUESTION FOR SPECULATION - (note it is a question for speculation, not a position) Can people in the above state (dead, but not judged) cry out to be saved? It's a QUESTION that the Bible is not clear on. Clearly they were dead. Clearly they came back to life in their physical bodies. Clearly they had choices to make after returning to life. There is evidence to speculate about if they could cry out on both sides - yes and no.

The question is irrelevant because it is based on an unbiblical position to begin with, making any speculation not only pointless but unwise.

WHAT I KNOW - there are no promises (for the purpose of this discussion) for what happens after one dies, except for judgment at some time. No one is promised a second chance, although some were given one. No one is promised a time period between after dying and judgment, although it appears some were given one. However, there is a vast difference between saying there is no second chance and not being promised one. There is a vast difference between saying judgment occurs immediately after death and at some point after death. I believe the first requires jumping through a lot of hoops, the second is simply reading the Bible literally.

And again, even if we were able to correctly speculate about these exceptional cases of people dying and returning to life, it would not establish anything as to what happens in normal cases of death with no return to life. What God has not told us cannot be used to undermine what he has told us.

[titus213]

Here is Dake's comment pertaining to this question as found in the DARB at Hebrews 9:27. Note that he is not denying the fact that there were exceptional cases of people being brought back from the dead to live for a time . . . he is commenting on the general truth expressed in Hebrews which applies to all men (even those who were temporarily brought back to this life):

"After death the judgment, not a second chance to live on earth and be saved. Death ends all probation for the one who dies. If he is righteous at death, his soul and spirit go to heaven awaiting the resurrection of the body (2 Cor. 5:8; Php. 1:21-24 Heb. 12:23; Rev. 6:9-11). If he is wicked at death his soul and spirit go to hell to await the resurrection of his body (Lk. 16:19-31 Isa. 14:9; Rev. 20:11-15). There is no such thing as purgatory or a second chance to be on probation in the Millennium or any other time. Neither is there a reincarnation. . ."

Dake also has other comments scattered throughout the DARB clarifying his (and scripture's) view on this. For example he comments on Luke 16 regarding the teaching Jesus gave on the rich man and Lazarus: "the unsaved go to hell WHEN THEY LEAVE THEIR BODIES" and "are in conscious torment in hell".