Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Weak Grace?

[Grandfather]

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph 2:8,9

I believe we can all agree we are saved by GRACE and that we did nothing in and of ourselves to deserve, earn or merit salvation, other than to respond to the GRACE of God.


If that is true, then why do we believe the GRACE that saved us without our help cannot sustain us without our help?

Now, I will acknowledge there are extremes, on both sides of this concept, and I am not addressing them. For example, there are those that would take this to the extreme of an OSAS position by saying they were "saved" so now they can live like the devil because they are always saved. To them I would use the scripture of "bearing fruits worthy of repentance", for I believe if one is truly saved their live will begin being transformed.

The other extreme is that our salvation is so fragile and so weak that any sin, omission or commission, will return us to an unsaved state. And this position implies that while we are not saved by works, we earn, merit and deserve salvation by works we do AFTER we are saved, which is an issue of pride and boasting.

Notice 1 Cor 3....If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames. ---- THE BUILDER SUFFERS LOSS, BUT IS SAVED

[bibleman]

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph 2:8,9

I believe we can all agree we are saved by GRACE and that we did nothing in and of ourselves to deserve, earn or merit salvation, other than to respond to the GRACE of God.


If that is true, then why do we believe the GRACE that saved us without our help cannot sustain us without our help?

Now, I will acknowledge there are extremes, on both sides of this concept, and I am not addressing them. For example, there are those that would take this to the extreme of an OSAS position by saying they were "saved" so now they can live like the devil because they are always saved. To them I would use the scripture of "bearing fruits worthy of repentance", for I believe if one is truly saved their live will begin being transformed.

The other extreme is that our salvation is so fragile and so weak that any sin, omission or commission, will return us to an unsaved state. And this position implies that while we are not saved by works, we earn, merit and deserve salvation by works we do AFTER we are saved, which is an issue of pride and boasting.

Notice 1 Cor 3....If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames. ---- THE BUILDER SUFFERS LOSS, BUT IS SAVED

The real key to understanding sin and its effects on us has to do with understanding what a "death penalty sin" is?

Have you ever studied the death penalty sins as mentioned in the Dake Bibel?

[Justaned]

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph 2:8,9

I believe we can all agree we are saved by GRACE and that we did nothing in and of ourselves to deserve, earn or merit salvation, other than to respond to the GRACE of God.


If that is true, then why do we believe the GRACE that saved us without our help cannot sustain us without our help?

Now, I will acknowledge there are extremes, on both sides of this concept, and I am not addressing them. For example, there are those that would take this to the extreme of an OSAS position by saying they were "saved" so now they can live like the devil because they are always saved. To them I would use the scripture of "bearing fruits worthy of repentance", for I believe if one is truly saved their live will begin being transformed.

The other extreme is that our salvation is so fragile and so weak that any sin, omission or commission, will return us to an unsaved state. And this position implies that while we are not saved by works, we earn, merit and deserve salvation by works we do AFTER we are saved, which is an issue of pride and boasting.

Notice 1 Cor 3....If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames. ---- THE BUILDER SUFFERS LOSS, BUT IS SAVED

Grandfather
I agree with your position but that position requires a middle of the road position and American Christians and probably Christians in general never seem to like the middle of the road. Likewise I think both sides of the this issue has extremes OSAS side living like the devil and still being saved to the stomach turning roller coaster of the other side where you are saved and unsaved almost by the minute. Unfortunately we tend to use those extremes to define the others position which makes them very aberrant to us and hard to see any truth they may contain.

Your position will only be accepted by people that consider all of scripture equally and not pick out the verse or verses that supports their position.

[Grandfather]

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph 2:8,9

I believe we can all agree we are saved by GRACE and that we did nothing in and of ourselves to deserve, earn or merit salvation, other than to respond to the GRACE of God.


If that is true, then why do we believe the GRACE that saved us without our help cannot sustain us without our help?

Now, I will acknowledge there are extremes, on both sides of this concept, and I am not addressing them. For example, there are those that would take this to the extreme of an OSAS position by saying they were "saved" so now they can live like the devil because they are always saved. To them I would use the scripture of "bearing fruits worthy of repentance", for I believe if one is truly saved their live will begin being transformed.

The other extreme is that our salvation is so fragile and so weak that any sin, omission or commission, will return us to an unsaved state. And this position implies that while we are not saved by works, we earn, merit and deserve salvation by works we do AFTER we are saved, which is an issue of pride and boasting.

Notice 1 Cor 3....If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames. ---- THE BUILDER SUFFERS LOSS, BUT IS SAVED

The above is a brief summary and needs further elaboration on both extremes. However, forums such as this, long posts seldom are fully read. I realize that even with the examples I've used there are extremes, even within the responses that have been given there are extremes. However, often we use the extremes to demonize one belief in order to defend another. I believe there is an answer to "death penalty" sins, but yet in discussing them there can be extremes on both sides and those must be acknowledged before an answer can be reached.

[titus213]

"Your position will only be accepted by people that consider all of scripture equally and not pick out the verse or verses that supports their position"

You mean like Grandfather just did by picking out 1 Cor. 3??

[Justaned]

"Your position will only be accepted by people that consider all of scripture equally and not pick out the verse or verses that supports their position"

You mean like Grandfather just did by picking out 1 Cor. 3??

Well we all know that everyone will stand in Judgment. The unrighteous before the Great White Throne of Judgment and the saved before the Bema seat. If there is judgment there must be a verdict or conclusion. I think 1 Cor 3:10-15 gives us some idea of that verdict as does Rev 20:11-15

[Ironman]

The beauty of Grace is this. One cannot go to Woolworths or church or anywhere else for that matter and buy grace. Here's how grace works. There are possibly billions of people who have never heard of God or His Word or Jesus Christ. Yet, by Grace God will do right by them. Dake puts it perfectly;

"God will do right even by those who have never ever even heard of Him! or any other name associated with and to God. God has revealed His method of dealing with these people even those who have never heard the gospel.

In Romans 2:12-16 that God will do right by every man according to the light he has recieved. He said, "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these having not the law, are a law unto themselves: which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the meanwhile accusing or else excusing one another;) In the day when God shall judge the secrets fo men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."

.

[titus213]

"If that is true, then why do we believe the GRACE that saved us without our help cannot sustain us without our help?
"

Because the Bible teaches that God's grace is not just some force which works upon us and within us apart from our involvement.
As one of many examples, consider Philippians 2:12-13 where there is an emphasis on God-energized obedience. As Dake points out in his comments, if a person refuses to obey (and thus "work out" his salvation) God's grace will not continue to sustain without his help.

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure

[bibleman]

"If that is true, then why do we believe the GRACE that saved us without our help cannot sustain us without our help?
"

Because the Bible teaches that God's grace is not just some force which works upon us and within us apart from our involvement.
As one of many examples, consider Philippians 2:12-13 where there is an emphasis on God-energized obedience. As Dake points out in his comments, if a person refuses to obey (and thus "work out" his salvation) God's grace will not continue to sustain without his help.

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure

[Justaned]

"If that is true, then why do we believe the GRACE that saved us without our help cannot sustain us without our help?
"

Because the Bible teaches that God's grace is not just some force which works upon us and within us apart from our involvement.
As one of many examples, consider Philippians 2:12-13 where there is an emphasis on God-energized obedience. As Dake points out in his comments, if a person refuses to obey (and thus "work out" his salvation) God's grace will not continue to sustain without his help.

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure

No one except those that cite extremes are ignoring the need for obedience. The deciding factor is when the flesh is weak and slip up is committed which is sin is grace sufficient to cover it or must we redo our first actions to regain salvation.