Dake Bible Discussion BoardWeak Grace?

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titus213
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Re: Weak Grace?

Post by titus213 »

Dake's notes on 1 John 1 and 2 cover this quite well, in my opinion.

"The purpose and demand of the gospel is "that you may not sin" (1 Jn 2.1). We do not sin if we walk in the light (1 Jn 1.7,9) . . . "the blood of Jesus keeps us cleansed from all sin" . . . but if one does fall into sin he still has hope: he can confess sin and be cleansed again".

It is because of God's grace, which has provided Jesus as our Advocate, that we can be cleansed. But there is also a call for us to be honest and acknowledge our sin. Grace does not "cover it" when we step away from grace, or as John might put it, no longer walk in the light. What the extreme grace teaching as promoted by Joseph Prince teaches is that confession of sin is not needed. His teaching isn't new. There was a syndicated nationwide radio program several years ago which taught exactly the same thing (I forget the guy's name) trying to show that 1 John 1.9 was intended for unbelievers, not Christians.

ps - remember the guy now: Bob George, People to People was the name of his radio program.



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Justaned
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Re: Weak Grace?

Post by Justaned »

titus213 wrote:Dake's notes on 1 John 1 and 2 cover this quite will, in my opinion.

"The purpose and demand of the gospel is "that you may not sin" (1 Jn 2.1). We do not sin if we walk in the light (1 Jn 1.7,9) . . . "the blood of Jesus keeps us cleansed from all sin" . . . but if one does fall into sin he still has hope: he can confess sin and be cleansed again".

It is because of God's grace, which has provided Jesus as our Advocate, that we can be cleansed. But there is also a call us to be honest and acknowledge our sin. Grace does not "cover it" when we step away from grace, or as John might put it, no longer walk in the light. What the extreme grace teaching as promoted by Joseph Prince teaches is that confession of sin is not needed. His teaching isn't new. There was a syndicated nationwide radio program several years ago which taught exactly the same thing (I forget the guy's name) trying to show that 1 John 1.9 was intended for unbelievers, not Christians.
Let us get the full passage.

1 John 1:5-10 (NASB)
5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;
7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

What is verse 7 saying? Is it not saying Jesus' blood is sufficient to cleanse us from sin. There is not further qualification whether this is past, present or future sin. You are saying it is limited to past and present but not future. I say I see no such qualifier.

Verse 9 I think is talking of the salvation process. Again I do not see a qualifier that says it is past, present or future sin. Most certainly it does not even remote suggest we have a free ticket to sin.



titus213
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Re: Weak Grace?

Post by titus213 »

What is verse 7 saying? Is it not saying Jesus' blood is sufficient to cleanse us from sin. There is not further qualification whether this is past, present or future sin. You are saying it is limited to past and present but not future. I say I see no such qualifier.


The qualifier is called verb tense - it's a present tense "if we are living in the light we are having fellowship and are being cleansed". Obviously, it is assuming a present experience. The cleansing in view is as we walk in the light. It is not even attempting to promise some kind of blanket cleansing for all future sin.
There is no reason to suddenly pop verse 9 out of context and claim it's speaking about the salvation process . . . John is writing to Christians, not to unbelievers.



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Justaned
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Re: Weak Grace?

Post by Justaned »

titus213 wrote:What is verse 7 saying? Is it not saying Jesus' blood is sufficient to cleanse us from sin. There is not further qualification whether this is past, present or future sin. You are saying it is limited to past and present but not future. I say I see no such qualifier.


The qualifier is called verb tense - it's a present tense "if we are living in the light we are having fellowship and are being cleansed". Obviously, it is assuming a present experience. The cleansing in view is as we walk in the light. It is not even attempting to promise some kind of blanket cleansing for all future sin.
There is no reason to suddenly pop verse 9 out of context and claim it's speaking about the salvation process . . . John is writing to Christians, not to unbelievers.

Wait wait verse 7 does not have present tense. It says 1 John 1:7 (NASB)
7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

The part we are looking at has not tense but rather is a blanket statement that the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. It says ALL sin not just past sin, not just present sin, but ALL sin.

Verse 9 is talking of the salvation process, believers have already experienced it, so there is no need to reiterate it.
It is for the unbeliever to know how his salvation is secured. If a believer doesn't know this he really isn't saved now is he?



titus213
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Re: Weak Grace?

Post by titus213 »

Of course there is present tense!

First of all it is clearly present tense in Greek. Check it out any way you care to.

Second of all, "we walk" and "we have" and "cleanses" are all present tense verbs even in English.

But yes, it does say all sin, and all sin means just that. The point he is making is that IF we ongoingly walk (present tense) in the light we ongoingly have fellowship and the blood of Jesus ongoingly cleanses us from all sin as we ongoingly walk. It says nothing about cleansing us from sin in the future because it isn't dealing with the future. It is explaining what our present fellowship with one another and with God is based upon: walking in the Light.

Here are 3 other versions which may help make it clearer:

But if we really are living in the same light in which he eternally exists, then we have true fellowship with each other, and the blood which his Son shed for us keeps us clean from all sin. (Phillips)

But if we are living in the light, as God is in the light, then we have fellowship with each other, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, cleanses us from all sin. (New Living Translation)

But if we [really] are living and walking in the Light, as He [Himself] is in the Light, we have [true, unbroken] fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses (removes) us from all sin and guilt [keeps us cleansed from sin in all its forms and manifestations]. (Amplified)



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Justaned
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Re: Weak Grace?

Post by Justaned »

titus213 wrote:Of course there is present tense!

First of all it is clearly present tense in Greek. Check it out any way you care to.

Second of all, "we walk" and "we have" and "cleanses" are all present tense verbs even in English.

But yes, it does say all sin, and all sin means just that. The point he is making is that IF we ongoingly walk (present tense) in the light we ongoingly have fellowship and the blood of Jesus ongoingly cleanses us from all sin as we ongoingly walk. It says nothing about cleansing us from sin in the future because it isn't dealing with the future. It is explaining what our present fellowship with one another and with God is based upon: walking in the Light.

Here are 3 other versions which may help make it clearer:

But if we really are living in the same light in which he eternally exists, then we have true fellowship with each other, and the blood which his Son shed for us keeps us clean from all sin. (Phillips)

But if we are living in the light, as God is in the light, then we have fellowship with each other, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, cleanses us from all sin. (New Living Translation)

But if we [really] are living and walking in the Light, as He [Himself] is in the Light, we have [true, unbroken] fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses (removes) us from all sin and guilt [keeps us cleansed from sin in all its forms and manifestations]. (Amplified)

Ongoing is present tense?? What??? On going is going on from this point.
on·go·ing
ˈänˌgōiNG,ˈôn-/Submit
adjective
continuing; still in progress.
"ongoing negotiations"
synonyms: in progress, under way, going on, continuing, taking place, proceeding, progressing, advancing; More

It is definitely talking of a process that continues on from the immediate present.
But is also talking of sin. So if we are talking of saved people which don't sin, why does it mention sin, if it is talking of only unsaved why is talking of walking in fellowship with Christ?
I believe it is saying we must walk in the light but our unintentional sins, sins evoked from emotion and sins of omission are under the blood. For we know the salvation process and it is ongoing. It doesn't just stop once we are saved but goes on with us through life.



titus213
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Re: Weak Grace?

Post by titus213 »

in progress, under way, going on, continuing, taking place, proceeding, progressing, advancing

Yes, all present tense. Time to crack open your Grammar 101 book.



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Justaned
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Re: Weak Grace?

Post by Justaned »

titus213 wrote:in progress, under way, going on, continuing, taking place, proceeding, progressing, advancing

Yes, all present tense. Time to crack open your Grammar 101 book.
If it is ongoing does it stop after I say ongoing or does it go on? As in continuous?



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