Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Limited Omniscience

[Justaned]

I beg the both of you to please not say what you have said on here to unbelievers because it will Cause more people to reject God, I know I have been there. To me the god that is being portrait seems like a god that is playing games with humanity and a bit tyrannical and no your guys' positioned is not as evil as the Calvinistic view but illogical nonetheless.

Thankfully and by God's great mercy after over 35 years of witnessing with the last 22 being in full time ministry your concern has no validity. I have never had anyone reject Jesus because of God's Omniscience as I explained it to them.

I will say if I believed God was as limited as you try to make Him I would not worship Him.

Well boast about your self all you ant it still does not make you right. It seems to me have you 35 yers and 22 years of ministry working against and and has made you aregant and unteachable. Well I don't follow your god either, Your god is as arrogant and judgmental as you.

I pray that was not seen as a boast by anyone else. I repent of it if it was. It was simply to say I have never met anyone that rejected God because God was Omniscient. The God I worship is the God of creation, the God Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the one true God. The God in whom nothing is impossible.

[Rocky]

~Edited for wanting to choke Ed~

[Rocky]

I was going to message this to you but it won't change you are anything so I will do it public
No Ed you boasted about your yourself and then cheap shotted me that is a fact. And then said you don't worship the god that we serve then why are you here? Well I don't want your god or your religion either, so aren't we both content. I believe that you portray a god that is not depicted in the bible. It believe your god is very mean and tyrannical I cant even put in the to words really of the way I believe you have assonated Gods character, And you will never see that because you have been a religious person for 50 years or so, you are unteachable. I am starting to believe that you and I are on different paths and following completely different deities. You claim to be a Christian but then believe the opposite of what the bible teaches. You are here to just argue. Why are you on a Dake forum if you don't agree with him on anything. This is why I despise MacArthurism, it creates a bunch of little Eds.

[Justaned]

I beg the both of you to please not say what you have said on here to unbelievers because it will Cause more people to reject God, I know I have been there. To me the god that is being portrait seems like a god that is playing games with humanity and a bit tyrannical and no your guys' positioned is not as evil as the Calvinistic view but illogical nonetheless.

Thankfully and by God's great mercy after over 35 years of witnessing with the last 22 being in full time ministry your concern has no validity. I have never had anyone reject Jesus because of God's Omniscience as I explained it to them.

I will say if I believed God was as limited as you try to make Him I would not worship Him.

Well boast about your self all you ant it still does not make you right. It seems to me have you 35 yers and 22 years of ministry working against and and has made you aregant and unteachable. Well I don't follow your god either, Your god is as arrogant and judgmental as you.

I pray that was not seen as a boast by anyone else. I repent of it if it was. It was simply to say I have never met anyone that rejected God because God was Omniscient. The God I worship is the God of creation, the God Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the one true God. The God in whom nothing is impossible.

Oh Whatever, like my private message I just sent you, I am getting tired of your cheap shots that's all I am saying. What you did was brag and try to boast to discredit my reply. Why are you even here if all you are going to do is troll?

Rocky I'm sorry you feel the way you do. My intent was not to boast or brag I only wanted to add some tangible evidence to show your supposition was wrong.

[Rocky]

I beg the both of you to please not say what you have said on here to unbelievers because it will Cause more people to reject God, I know I have been there. To me the god that is being portrait seems like a god that is playing games with humanity and a bit tyrannical and no your guys' positioned is not as evil as the Calvinistic view but illogical nonetheless.

Thankfully and by God's great mercy after over 35 years of witnessing with the last 22 being in full time ministry your concern has no validity. I have never had anyone reject Jesus because of God's Omniscience as I explained it to them.

I will say if I believed God was as limited as you try to make Him I would not worship Him.

Well boast about your self all you ant it still does not make you right. It seems to me have you 35 yers and 22 years of ministry working against and and has made you aregant and unteachable. Well I don't follow your god either, Your god is as arrogant and judgmental as you.

I pray that was not seen as a boast by anyone else. I repent of it if it was. It was simply to say I have never met anyone that rejected God because God was Omniscient. The God I worship is the God of creation, the God Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the one true God. The God in whom nothing is impossible.

Oh Whatever, like my private message I just sent you, I am getting tired of your cheap shots that's all I am saying. What you did was brag and try to boast to discredit my reply. Why are you even here if all you are going to do is troll?

Rocky I'm sorry you feel the way you do. My intent was not to boast or brag I only wanted to add some tangible evidence to show your supposition was wrong.

what was wrong about it? Maybe your are just out of touch with the way people are now days, we live in an age with so much information and people questioning things we are tired of "Oh we wont never know until we get to heaven" type of mentality, When every thing is explained in the bible, And man just distort it and cloud our understanding. Like what I believe that you seem to do a lot with the scriptures. I don't know who you interact with but the people I know are free thinkers and want the tuff questions answered that are in the bible that Christians like you dismiss, or run from. I believe Dake is 100% right about what he taught about omniscience, he gives countless scripture and you give none. Dake is able to answered the tuff question that you and even my self have ran from in the past. I do not believe you are gifted like Dake was an nether am I or any one else on here. Did I get aggravated with you? Yes absolutely, you seem to insult people and even Dakes teachings on here..

[Grandfather]

Dake is 100% right about what he taught about omniscience he gives countless scripture and you give none.

The scriptures and the position Dake takes on them (hyper, 20th century, western cultured, literalism) only shows that Dake has redefined omniscience as to mean something less than all-knowing.

Simply put, if God has to go check things out for himself, wait until men make decisions to learn what those decisions are, etc, then God is less than all knowing. In Gen 22:12 Dake says this: "God limits His own attributes to conform to His plan for free moral agents. This makes Him no less omniscient, but enables Him to respect the will of man. Thus, God does not plan man's choices or acts, but holds him responsible for them." Dake's Annotated Reference Bible.

NOTICE --
1 - God limits His attributes. - I agree whole hearted, it is the HOW those attributes are limited where I have my disagreement
2 - God is no less omniscient - the way Dake defines how God limits those attributes God is certainly less omniscient despite what Dake claims here.
3 - God respects the will of man - again I agree 100%
4 - God does not plan man's choices - again I agree 100%
5 - God holds man accountable for them - again I agree 100%

So, the problem I have with Dake IS NOT in the principle, but in Dake's application. When taken in a strict word-for-word literal translation with a 20th century, western cultured, mindset as Dake does with the examples he gives, he makes God less than all-knowing, all-powerful, less than omniscient. Even though Dake claims it doesn't. Simply put - if there is something God doesn't know, then God is not all knowing. Its cut and dry, plain and simple, it's a YES He does or NO He doesn't. YOU CANNOT HAVE BOTH! They are diametrical opposed to each other, regardless of how many times you say they aren't.

[Grandfather]

I just am curious is there anything that Grandfather or Ed agree with Dake on or even what the bible shows about the subjects where they have contradicted the bible. I beg the both of you to please not say what you have said on here to unbelievers because it will Cause more people to reject God, I know I have been there. To me the god that is being portrait seems like a god that is playing games with humanity and a bit tyrannical and no your guys' positioned is not as evil as the Calvinistic view but illogical nonetheless. You have even claimed God knew everything that was going to happen after the fall and still found it necessary to put a tree to tempt mankind, and for what? Ed claims to show us what we are made of? Wow!!!!! Why even create man in the first place Would not that be spiritual abortion to know that millions, billions would die and go to hell and destruction and disease and horrid atrocities would happen and still allow man to be tempted to show us what we can do? And for what, to entertain the god that you guys are representing?
The reason I keep going back to the fall is because that is where it all started and according to a couple of guys on here, God knew what was going to happen but allowed man to be tempted and tested anyway, I ask why?!!!!!!!!
Here is What the bible to me shows:
God created man with free will. God tested man in the garden to to see if they would be faithful to him before he was going to allow them to partake in the tree of life and live forever, imaging immortal sinners that would be horrible. I say God did not know ahead of time that Adam and eve was going to fall and allowed the tree of the knowledge and good and evil to be there to test mans faithfulness. I am sure God knew it was possible for man to fall because he already knew how he was going to redeem man if he did.
This to me is omniscience: God knowing what His plan for man is and knowing ahead of time that his redemptive plan for man is what will save the world and bring it back to a sinless perfect state after christ's return and after the 1000 year reign of Christ.

Rocky,
This is not the first time you have claimed I have Calvinist views. Would you mind telling me what views I hold in common with Calvinism, or is that simply a charge you throw out when you can't respond in any other manner?

[Rocky]

I just am curious is there anything that Grandfather or Ed agree with Dake on or even what the bible shows about the subjects where they have contradicted the bible. I beg the both of you to please not say what you have said on here to unbelievers because it will Cause more people to reject God, I know I have been there. To me the god that is being portrait seems like a god that is playing games with humanity and a bit tyrannical and no your guys' positioned is not as evil as the Calvinistic view but illogical nonetheless. You have even claimed God knew everything that was going to happen after the fall and still found it necessary to put a tree to tempt mankind, and for what? Ed claims to show us what we are made of? Wow!!!!! Why even create man in the first place Would not that be spiritual abortion to know that millions, billions would die and go to hell and destruction and disease and horrid atrocities would happen and still allow man to be tempted to show us what we can do? And for what, to entertain the god that you guys are representing?
The reason I keep going back to the fall is because that is where it all started and according to a couple of guys on here, God knew what was going to happen but allowed man to be tempted and tested anyway, I ask why?!!!!!!!!
Here is What the bible to me shows:
God created man with free will. God tested man in the garden to to see if they would be faithful to him before he was going to allow them to partake in the tree of life and live forever, imaging immortal sinners that would be horrible. I say God did not know ahead of time that Adam and eve was going to fall and allowed the tree of the knowledge and good and evil to be there to test mans faithfulness. I am sure God knew it was possible for man to fall because he already knew how he was going to redeem man if he did.
This to me is omniscience: God knowing what His plan for man is and knowing ahead of time that his redemptive plan for man is what will save the world and bring it back to a sinless perfect state after christ's return and after the 1000 year reign of Christ.

Rocky,
This is not the first time you have claimed I have Calvinist views. Would you mind telling me what views I hold in common with Calvinism, or is that simply a charge you throw out when you can't respond in any other manner?

I did not claim you had Calvinistic views where did you get that? I said "your guys' positioned is not as evil as the Calvinistic view" Could you please re-read my reply. Sometimes I think that you and Ed dont actually read my replies? You both seem to misquote me a lot or misinterpret what I say. Again show me where I said you are a Calvinist or said you had Calvinistic views here?:mrgreen:

[Rocky]

Dake is 100% right about what he taught about omniscience he gives countless scripture and you give none.

The scriptures and the position Dake takes on them (hyper, 20th century, western cultured, literalism) only shows that Dake has redefined omniscience as to mean something less than all-knowing.

Simply put, if God has to go check things out for himself, wait until men make decisions to learn what those decisions are, etc, then God is less than all knowing. In Gen 22:12 Dake says this: "God limits His own attributes to conform to His plan for free moral agents. This makes Him no less omniscient, but enables Him to respect the will of man. Thus, God does not plan man's choices or acts, but holds him responsible for them." Dake's Annotated Reference Bible.

NOTICE --
1 - God limits His attributes. - I agree whole hearted, it is the HOW those attributes are limited where I have my disagreement
2 - God is no less omniscient - the way Dake defines how God limits those attributes God is certainly less omniscient despite what Dake claims here.
3 - God respects the will of man - again I agree 100%
4 - God does not plan man's choices - again I agree 100%
5 - God holds man accountable for them - again I agree 100%

So, the problem I have with Dake IS NOT in the principle, but in Dake's application. When taken in a strict word-for-word literal translation with a 20th century, western cultured, mindset as Dake does with the examples he gives, he makes God less than all-knowing, all-powerful, less than omniscient. Even though Dake claims it doesn't. Simply put - if there is something God doesn't know, then God is not all knowing. Its cut and dry, plain and simple, it's a YES He does or NO He doesn't. YOU CANNOT HAVE BOTH! They are diametrical opposed to each other, regardless of how many times you say they aren't.

Grandfather in trying to discredit Dake yet again you said: The scriptures and the position Dake takes on them (hyper, 20th century, western cultured, literalism) only shows that Dake has redefined omniscience as to mean something less than all-knowing.
Ever heard of the school of Antioch in the 2nd century how about the school of Alexandria and the difference between the two when it comes to approaching scripture? I see your reply here nothing more than a futile attempt in discrediting Dake. Grand pappy what is the agenda here? If you want the bible to be reduced into a over spiritualized book that is to hard to understand that's fine but quit knocking us who prefer to take it literal. Have your book of mystery and allegorical metaphors. I know this sound blunt but I don't like the disrespect that is being shown to Dake or the bible on here from you and Ed.. You have been shown the truth reject or accept it. Sorry the bible says what it says..

[Grandfather]

I did not claim you had Calvinistic views where did you get that? I said "your guys' positioned is not as evil as the Calvinistic view" Could you please re-read my reply. Sometimes I think that you and Ed dont actually read my replies? You both seem to misquote me a lot or misinterpret what I say. Again show me where I said you are a Calvinist or said you had Calvinistic views here?:mrgreen:

Then I ask your forgiveness for making that assumption of you.