Rocky,Rocky wrote:No he does not contradict himself.Grandfather wrote:Either God is all-knowing or He is not! If someone says God has to learn, doesn't know until, discovers, etc., then they are in fact saying that God IS NOT OMNISCIENT. However, Dake clearly says that God is omniscient, so he contradicts himself in trying to explain God's interaction with man.bibleman wrote:Read it again until you get it!Grandfather wrote:bibleman wrote:Here is what Dake teaches about the subject.
Read it, study it and then you will have all of your questions cleared up!
God is Omniscient
The question of the omniscience of God is also much misunderstood. The Bible makes many simple statements that limit God's knowledge. There would be no sense to such passages if we do not believe them literally. There is no meaning to them if we take them figuratively. There was no purpose for God to say such things about Himself, if they were untrue. God gets to know things concerning the free moral actions of men as others do (Gen. 6:5-7; 11:5-7; 18:21; 22:12; 2 Chron. 16:9; Zech. 4:10; Job 12:22; 24:23; Ps. 7:9; 44:21; Ps. 139:1-6; Prov. 24:12; Jer. 17:10; Ezek. 11:5; Rom. 8:27; 1 Thess. 2:4). God sends messengers throughout the Earth who report to Him of all that they find in the Earth that goes on (Dan. 10:13-21; 11:1; 12:1; Zech. 1:7-11; 6:1-8; Mt. 18:10-11; Heb. 2:4). God does not take care of every detail of His vast business in all the kingdoms of the universe. His agents help Him and they are found in every part of the universe on missions for God. Certain angels are responsible to God for carrying out His will in almost infinite detail concerning the billions of suns, moons, planets and all free moral agents on them. God does not personally do everything that is done in all acts and events, nor has He known, elected, chosen, or predestinated all the acts and events from all eternity past. Several times God Himself said of certain events that they did not come into His mind (Jer. 19:5; 32:35; 44:21). God did not know beforehand that men would become so wicked (Gen. 6:5-7); that they would plan Babel (Gen. 11:5-7); that Sodom would be so wicked (Gen. 18:21, 26, 28-32); that Abraham would actually proceed to offer up Isaac (Gen. 22:12). God did not know whether it would take one or two or three signs to make Israel believe in Him (Exod. 4:1-12); or whether testing Israel would cause them to obey Him, or not (Deut. 8:2, 16). He did not know that Israel would backslide as far as she did (Deut. 32:19-29; Isa. 59:15-19). Furthermore, He searches to find men whom He can bless (2 Chron. 16:9); He discovers deep things (Job 12:22); tries the hearts and reins of men so that He may know them (Ps. 7:9; 44:21; 139:1-6, 23-24; Jer. 17:10; 1 Chron. 28:9; Rom. 8:27; 1 Cor 2:10; Rev. 2:23), proving all men for the same reason (Ps. 17:3; 66:10; 81:7).
God sends messengers throughout the whole of His vast creations to find out for Him what He wants to know, the same as the head of any other business would be likely to do, so that plans may be made and actions taken accordingly. Examples of such agency constantly reporting to God can be found in Gen. 18:21-22; Dan. 10:13-21; 11:1; 12:1; Zech. 1:7-11; 6:1-8; Mt. 18:10-11; Heb. 1:14; 2:2; Rev. 1:1; 7:1-3; 8:2-13; 9:1; 14:6-20; 15:1-8; 16:1-21; 18:21; 22:6, 8-9, 16.
The 6,468 commands in the Bible regulating man as to his part in the eternal plan of God, and setting forth his responsibility to God and man, the 1,260 promises of curses and blessings, rewards or loss of rewards, the hundreds of warnings, curses, blessings and dealings of God on the basis of conformity to His will, the 1,522 “if's” and the many hundreds of conditional requirements of God throughout Scripture are sufficient proof that God does not cause all acts and events by His own decrees—and sufficient proof that He changes His own dealings with men, as they conform or refuse to conform to His will. Such facts and many others make it clear that God does not know from all eternity what any one man will do, much less what different types and dispositions of men will do under various circumstances that are not yet present to deal with. We have no statement in the entire Bible saying that God knows or even would like to know all acts and particular events of all vast creations of free moral agents from all eternity past, or that He has fixed decrees choosing and predestinating all the thoughts, acts, and deeds of free wills from all eternity past to all eternity future. God's eternal plan for man is known from the beginning to the end and what He plans to bring to pass on Earth He has power to do, but concerning the free actions of free moral agents He does not know from all eternity what they will do before they are in existence and are here to have a part in His plan. He does not know which ones will be saved and which ones will be lost. He has made a plan for all to be saved alike and all who conform to His plan are blessed with the predestined blessings. Those who willfully rebel will be cursed with the predestined punishments according to the plan. It is the plan that is known from the beginning to the end, not the individual conformity to it by free moral agents. It is left up to each person to choose His own destiny. God wills for all men to be saved, but if man does not choose to be saved that is his responsibility (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9; Jn. 3:16; Rev. 22:17).
Finis J. Dake, God's Plan for Man, (Lawrenceville, GA: Dake Publishing, Inc., 2004), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, 62.
I have, I did and it contradicts what Dake said elsewhere. If God is "no less omniscient" then the examples Dake gives MUST BE explained differently, or possibly acknowledge they are insufficient examples/explanations of a difficult subject.
Either God is all-knowing (omniscient) or He is not. If God does not know something, for whatever reason, then He is not all-knowing (omniscient) Dake cannot have it both ways.
What I do see in the above is a basic foundation for understanding that the fore-knowledge is not a causation event. That even though God foreknows, He does not predetermine the actions of free-moral agents. All of the conditional promises (if/then) will hold man responsible and accountable for his actions. However if man were forced, "predestined" (as some would explain it), caused, etc to act in a certain way, then man would not be solely responsible because he had no choice in the matter.
You will never learn if you do not open you mind to the truth.
You said If someone says God has to learn, doesn't know until, discovers, etc., then they are in fact saying that God IS NOT OMNISCIENT. Well first of all as you know we see with Abraham when he was tested, even God said "now I know that you are faithful" The reason why you seem confused or this sounds like a contradiction is apparently your misunderstanding of omniscience. Look myself and others have gave scripture on this in another thread and a couple of others refuse it, or explain the scripture away. All of this is revealed in scripture maybe you want allow your self to understand and probably never will because you are still interpreting the bible for what you want it to mean instead of what it is really is showing us. So I am sorry this is something you will most likely never ever get. So it is probably better for every one to agree to disagree, you have been given plain scripture and even sound teaching, but yet still refuse. So what is actually the point to all of this?
Look with the logic that you have you will never ever be able to explain:
Why was there a tree put in the garden that would cause the fall if God knew already what was going to transpire?
Why does God still allow satin to continue?
Why do horrific things happen to good people?
Does every thing really happen for a reason?
Look I have only been a Christian for 7 years and God has open my eyes to these tuff questions, not because I am smart or any thing it is because I am receptive to what He shows me through his word. God has taught me, I believe to take his word for what it says :)
You are absolutely correct, the scriptures do record places where we are given the impression that God is learning, or there are things he doesn't know. And if taken at face value, as simply literal, then we must determine that God is not omniscient.
Now, if you want to re-define omniscient as something less than "all-knowing" there is no problem with those scriptures. However, if you believe that God is truly all-knowing, then our understanding of those passages must take a different turn.
So, here are the choices:
1 -God is indeed "all-knowing", and we must look at the scriptures that indicate otherwise with a less than strict literal interpretation.
2- The scriptures are to be taken strictly literal and God is learning and discovering as He goes and thus is not all-knowing
3- We re-define "all-knowing" to mean - knowing everything there is to know up until the moment there is more to know. Which means God is no more all knowing that "google search" and still not "all-knowing"
However, regardless of how many times Dake's notes are posted and we (I) am encouraged to read and study them, the fact remains. If Dake believes that God is OMNISCIENT, which according to Gen 22:12 he does, then we Dake says that God must learn, discover, etc. Those statements are in contradiction! Unless you're going to re-define contradiction.
As Dake attempts to explain, God's foreknowledge does not remove free-will from man. Man is free to make his choice, and man will be the responsibility/consequences for that choice.
