Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Grace from God is governed by man

[bibleman]

Was listening to Dake this morning and he said:

"The manifestation of the grace from God is governed by man's free moral agency on the part of every individual. That is, God is limited to what He can and will do for any individual by grace, by the will, by the faith, and by the obedience of each prospective recipient of grace." God's Plan for Man, lecture 17b, 25:00, Finis J. Dake.

Agree? Disagree? Comment?

[Grandfather]

Question: Elsewhere there are quotes that say God only knows that choice or action of an individual AFTER that choice/action has been made. That notion would be in direct conflict with the position that you posted above.

Hi Grandfather I hope you don't mind me replying I want to clarify something. No this is not a contradiction. When we say Gods limits himself with free moral agency as it pertains to foreknowledge, the position is as in times of testing the faithfulness as we saw with Abraham, And Adam and Eve. God also at times does have and display foreknowledge of things at other times like eschatology
or something that has been already decided in the heavenlyies. And, because God knows our thoughts from afar is able is able to know what is in our hearts and maybe an immediate decision. God has also in the bible displayed foreknowledge in protecting and warning someone. When we say God limits him self in foreknowledge we are not saying in every case, or generalizing. This is easily understood in scripture.

I agree that we see scriptures where it appears that God is "learning" what men do as they do it. However, I disagree that because that appears to be the case as we read it, that it is an entirely honest explanation.

We have one of three choices in believing that God has fore-knowledge.
1) He has complete and full foreknowledge
2) He has foreknowledge about some things, but not others (see note below)
3) He has absolutely no foreknowledge, but can make educated "guesses" much like men do today

Of the choices above, only #1 gives God one of the attributes to be OMNISCIENT. Limited or no foreknowledge do not allow for God to be omniscient. Now, you can say God limits his use of them, but that is different from limiting in having them.

(referenced above - to say God has partial foreknowledge, who is to say WHAT the parameters of that knowledge are? Is it only what we see already shown in scripture? Or perhaps the opposite, the only limits to God's knowledge are just those particular events that we have seen in scripture? And why is it one and not the other? Who decides?)

[Rocky]

Question: Elsewhere there are quotes that say God only knows that choice or action of an individual AFTER that choice/action has been made. That notion would be in direct conflict with the position that you posted above.

Hi Grandfather I hope you don't mind me replying I want to clarify something. No this is not a contradiction. When we say Gods limits himself with free moral agency as it pertains to foreknowledge, the position is as in times of testing the faithfulness as we saw with Abraham, And Adam and Eve. God also at times does have and display foreknowledge of things at other times like eschatology
or something that has been already decided in the heavenlyies. And, because God knows our thoughts from afar is able is able to know what is in our hearts and maybe an immediate decision. God has also in the bible displayed foreknowledge in protecting and warning someone. When we say God limits him self in foreknowledge we are not saying in every case, or generalizing. This is easily understood in scripture.

I agree that we see scriptures where it appears that God is "learning" what men do as they do it. However, I disagree that because that appears to be the case as we read it, that it is an entirely honest explanation.

We have one of three choices in believing that God has fore-knowledge.
1) He has complete and full foreknowledge
2) He has foreknowledge about some things, but not others (see note below)
3) He has absolutely no foreknowledge, but can make educated "guesses" much like men do today

Of the choices above, only #1 gives God one of the attributes to be OMNISCIENT. Limited or no foreknowledge do not allow for God to be omniscient. Now, you can say God limits his use of them, but that is different from limiting in having them.

(referenced above - to say God has partial foreknowledge, who is to say WHAT the parameters of that knowledge are? Is it only what we see already shown in scripture? Or perhaps the opposite, the only limits to God's knowledge are just those particular events that we have seen in scripture? And why is it one and not the other? Who decides?)

Very understandable reply. However I do believe taking the bible for what it says. God limiting his foreknowledge as it pertains to free moral agency does not take away from Him being omniscient. In GPFM the questions you are seeking are in there, but they are also in the bible. But, Dake does help you to understand this, Dake uses scripture for every thing he says or teaches, matter of fact in GPFM Dake has an entire chapter about omniscience of God. That fact is we see God limiting himself in the bible, this cannot be denied. God even one time permitted a demon spirit to cause someone to lie to get his will done. So there are things in the bible that shows us things about Him if we take it for what it says with out preconceive ideas and notions, not saying that you have them, you seem to be legitimately curious and I know this does challenge alot of views on God being omniscient and the definition of that as it is explained in the bible. Look at your first statement, you said: "I agree that we see scriptures where it appears that God is "learning" what men do as they do it." Its not that it appears that way, it is that way according to the bible. Now there I again I try to take the bible literal and try my hardest not too have an agenda, but just take it for what it says..

[Justaned]

Question: Elsewhere there are quotes that say God only knows that choice or action of an individual AFTER that choice/action has been made. That notion would be in direct conflict with the position that you posted above.

Hi Grandfather I hope you don't mind me replying I want to clarify something. No this is not a contradiction. When we say Gods limits himself with free moral agency as it pertains to foreknowledge, the position is as in times of testing the faithfulness as we saw with Abraham, And Adam and Eve. God also at times does have and display foreknowledge of things at other times like eschatology
or something that has been already decided in the heavenlyies. And, because God knows our thoughts from afar is able is able to know what is in our hearts and maybe an immediate decision. God has also in the bible displayed foreknowledge in protecting and warning someone. When we say God limits him self in foreknowledge we are not saying in every case, or generalizing. This is easily understood in scripture.

I agree that we see scriptures where it appears that God is "learning" what men do as they do it. However, I disagree that because that appears to be the case as we read it, that it is an entirely honest explanation.

We have one of three choices in believing that God has fore-knowledge.
1) He has complete and full foreknowledge
2) He has foreknowledge about some things, but not others (see note below)
3) He has absolutely no foreknowledge, but can make educated "guesses" much like men do today

Of the choices above, only #1 gives God one of the attributes to be OMNISCIENT. Limited or no foreknowledge do not allow for God to be omniscient. Now, you can say God limits his use of them, but that is different from limiting in having them.

(referenced above - to say God has partial foreknowledge, who is to say WHAT the parameters of that knowledge are? Is it only what we see already shown in scripture? Or perhaps the opposite, the only limits to God's knowledge are just those particular events that we have seen in scripture? And why is it one and not the other? Who decides?)

Very understandable reply. However I do believe taking the bible for what it says. God limiting his foreknowledge as it pertains to free moral agency does not take away from Him being omniscient. In GPFM the questions you are seeking are in there, but they are also in the bible. But, Dake does help you to understand this, Dake uses scripture for every thing he says or teaches, matter of fact in GPFM Dake has an entire chapter about omniscience of God. That fact is we see God limiting himself in the bible, this cannot be denied. God even one time permitted a demon spirit to cause someone to lie to get his will done. So there are things in the bible that shows us things about Him if we take it for what it says with out preconceive ideas and notions, not saying that you have them, you seem to be legitimately curious and I know this does challenge alot of views on God being omniscient and the definition of that as it is explained in the bible. Look at your first statement, you said: "I agree that we see scriptures where it appears that God is "learning" what men do as they do it." Its not that it appears that way, it is that way according to the bible. Now there I again I try to take the bible literal and try my hardest not too have an agenda, but just take it for what it says..

Does any one have scripture that says or implies that God limits his foreknowledge? I will admit there seems to be scripture that suggests that must have limited his foreknowledge but I have never seen scripture that actually said or implied this was the case.

[Rocky]

Question: Elsewhere there are quotes that say God only knows that choice or action of an individual AFTER that choice/action has been made. That notion would be in direct conflict with the position that you posted above.

Hi Grandfather I hope you don't mind me replying I want to clarify something. No this is not a contradiction. When we say Gods limits himself with free moral agency as it pertains to foreknowledge, the position is as in times of testing the faithfulness as we saw with Abraham, And Adam and Eve. God also at times does have and display foreknowledge of things at other times like eschatology
or something that has been already decided in the heavenlyies. And, because God knows our thoughts from afar is able is able to know what is in our hearts and maybe an immediate decision. God has also in the bible displayed foreknowledge in protecting and warning someone. When we say God limits him self in foreknowledge we are not saying in every case, or generalizing. This is easily understood in scripture.

I agree that we see scriptures where it appears that God is "learning" what men do as they do it. However, I disagree that because that appears to be the case as we read it, that it is an entirely honest explanation.

We have one of three choices in believing that God has fore-knowledge.
1) He has complete and full foreknowledge
2) He has foreknowledge about some things, but not others (see note below)
3) He has absolutely no foreknowledge, but can make educated "guesses" much like men do today

Of the choices above, only #1 gives God one of the attributes to be OMNISCIENT. Limited or no foreknowledge do not allow for God to be omniscient. Now, you can say God limits his use of them, but that is different from limiting in having them.

(referenced above - to say God has partial foreknowledge, who is to say WHAT the parameters of that knowledge are? Is it only what we see already shown in scripture? Or perhaps the opposite, the only limits to God's knowledge are just those particular events that we have seen in scripture? And why is it one and not the other? Who decides?)

Very understandable reply. However I do believe taking the bible for what it says. God limiting his foreknowledge as it pertains to free moral agency does not take away from Him being omniscient. In GPFM the questions you are seeking are in there, but they are also in the bible. But, Dake does help you to understand this, Dake uses scripture for every thing he says or teaches, matter of fact in GPFM Dake has an entire chapter about omniscience of God. That fact is we see God limiting himself in the bible, this cannot be denied. God even one time permitted a demon spirit to cause someone to lie to get his will done. So there are things in the bible that shows us things about Him if we take it for what it says with out preconceive ideas and notions, not saying that you have them, you seem to be legitimately curious and I know this does challenge alot of views on God being omniscient and the definition of that as it is explained in the bible. Look at your first statement, you said: "I agree that we see scriptures where it appears that God is "learning" what men do as they do it." Its not that it appears that way, it is that way according to the bible. Now there I again I try to take the bible literal and try my hardest not too have an agenda, but just take it for what it says..

Does any one have scripture that says or implies that God limits his foreknowledge? I will admit there seems to be scripture that suggests that must have limited his foreknowledge but I have never seen scripture that actually said or implied this was the case.

Ed now you are just grasping at straws lol Its like you just said: I know it shows this in the bible, but could someone show me this in the bible lol

[Justaned]

Question: Elsewhere there are quotes that say God only knows that choice or action of an individual AFTER that choice/action has been made. That notion would be in direct conflict with the position that you posted above.

Hi Grandfather I hope you don't mind me replying I want to clarify something. No this is not a contradiction. When we say Gods limits himself with free moral agency as it pertains to foreknowledge, the position is as in times of testing the faithfulness as we saw with Abraham, And Adam and Eve. God also at times does have and display foreknowledge of things at other times like eschatology
or something that has been already decided in the heavenlyies. And, because God knows our thoughts from afar is able is able to know what is in our hearts and maybe an immediate decision. God has also in the bible displayed foreknowledge in protecting and warning someone. When we say God limits him self in foreknowledge we are not saying in every case, or generalizing. This is easily understood in scripture.

I agree that we see scriptures where it appears that God is "learning" what men do as they do it. However, I disagree that because that appears to be the case as we read it, that it is an entirely honest explanation.

We have one of three choices in believing that God has fore-knowledge.
1) He has complete and full foreknowledge
2) He has foreknowledge about some things, but not others (see note below)
3) He has absolutely no foreknowledge, but can make educated "guesses" much like men do today

Of the choices above, only #1 gives God one of the attributes to be OMNISCIENT. Limited or no foreknowledge do not allow for God to be omniscient. Now, you can say God limits his use of them, but that is different from limiting in having them.

(referenced above - to say God has partial foreknowledge, who is to say WHAT the parameters of that knowledge are? Is it only what we see already shown in scripture? Or perhaps the opposite, the only limits to God's knowledge are just those particular events that we have seen in scripture? And why is it one and not the other? Who decides?)

Very understandable reply. However I do believe taking the bible for what it says. God limiting his foreknowledge as it pertains to free moral agency does not take away from Him being omniscient. In GPFM the questions you are seeking are in there, but they are also in the bible. But, Dake does help you to understand this, Dake uses scripture for every thing he says or teaches, matter of fact in GPFM Dake has an entire chapter about omniscience of God. That fact is we see God limiting himself in the bible, this cannot be denied. God even one time permitted a demon spirit to cause someone to lie to get his will done. So there are things in the bible that shows us things about Him if we take it for what it says with out preconceive ideas and notions, not saying that you have them, you seem to be legitimately curious and I know this does challenge alot of views on God being omniscient and the definition of that as it is explained in the bible. Look at your first statement, you said: "I agree that we see scriptures where it appears that God is "learning" what men do as they do it." Its not that it appears that way, it is that way according to the bible. Now there I again I try to take the bible literal and try my hardest not too have an agenda, but just take it for what it says..

Does any one have scripture that says or implies that God limits his foreknowledge? I will admit there seems to be scripture that suggests that must have limited his foreknowledge but I have never seen scripture that actually said or implied this was the case.

Ed now you are just grasping at straws lol Its like you just said: I know it shows this in the bible, but could someone show me this in the bible lol

I didn't say it show this in the bible. I said it seems to suggest it but I have never seen any scripture that actually said it or implied it. Have you?

[Rocky]

Question: Elsewhere there are quotes that say God only knows that choice or action of an individual AFTER that choice/action has been made. That notion would be in direct conflict with the position that you posted above.

Hi Grandfather I hope you don't mind me replying I want to clarify something. No this is not a contradiction. When we say Gods limits himself with free moral agency as it pertains to foreknowledge, the position is as in times of testing the faithfulness as we saw with Abraham, And Adam and Eve. God also at times does have and display foreknowledge of things at other times like eschatology
or something that has been already decided in the heavenlyies. And, because God knows our thoughts from afar is able is able to know what is in our hearts and maybe an immediate decision. God has also in the bible displayed foreknowledge in protecting and warning someone. When we say God limits him self in foreknowledge we are not saying in every case, or generalizing. This is easily understood in scripture.

I agree that we see scriptures where it appears that God is "learning" what men do as they do it. However, I disagree that because that appears to be the case as we read it, that it is an entirely honest explanation.

We have one of three choices in believing that God has fore-knowledge.
1) He has complete and full foreknowledge
2) He has foreknowledge about some things, but not others (see note below)
3) He has absolutely no foreknowledge, but can make educated "guesses" much like men do today

Of the choices above, only #1 gives God one of the attributes to be OMNISCIENT. Limited or no foreknowledge do not allow for God to be omniscient. Now, you can say God limits his use of them, but that is different from limiting in having them.

(referenced above - to say God has partial foreknowledge, who is to say WHAT the parameters of that knowledge are? Is it only what we see already shown in scripture? Or perhaps the opposite, the only limits to God's knowledge are just those particular events that we have seen in scripture? And why is it one and not the other? Who decides?)

Very understandable reply. However I do believe taking the bible for what it says. God limiting his foreknowledge as it pertains to free moral agency does not take away from Him being omniscient. In GPFM the questions you are seeking are in there, but they are also in the bible. But, Dake does help you to understand this, Dake uses scripture for every thing he says or teaches, matter of fact in GPFM Dake has an entire chapter about omniscience of God. That fact is we see God limiting himself in the bible, this cannot be denied. God even one time permitted a demon spirit to cause someone to lie to get his will done. So there are things in the bible that shows us things about Him if we take it for what it says with out preconceive ideas and notions, not saying that you have them, you seem to be legitimately curious and I know this does challenge alot of views on God being omniscient and the definition of that as it is explained in the bible. Look at your first statement, you said: "I agree that we see scriptures where it appears that God is "learning" what men do as they do it." Its not that it appears that way, it is that way according to the bible. Now there I again I try to take the bible literal and try my hardest not too have an agenda, but just take it for what it says..

Does any one have scripture that says or implies that God limits his foreknowledge? I will admit there seems to be scripture that suggests that must have limited his foreknowledge but I have never seen scripture that actually said or implied this was the case.

Ed now you are just grasping at straws lol Its like you just said: I know it shows this in the bible, but could someone show me this in the bible lol

I didn't say it show this in the bible. I said it seems to suggest it but I have never seen any scripture that actually said it or implied it. Have you?

:/ Umm "Now I know" ring a bell