Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Is God in the "Eternal Now"?

[cpbeller]

Ed, I know what "substance" means. I know what "assurance" means. The question is...do you? You have already proven time and time and time again that you will twist and make the Scripture say something completely opposite from what it simply states to fit what you think it should be.

The funny thing is...here is yet another instance of you disagreeing with Dake. Dake has stated that God has faith, and uses faith. I have given Scripture, I have given Dake's notes. You only want to tell me that I don't know what "substance" means, and warn me to "not go there". Whatever, Ed...again, I am arguing with brick wall...

Since faith is a gift of God where does God get his faith? What does God have faith in?

The answer is in your question...God is the one giving the gift...He already has it, or else, He would not be able to give it.

Ed: What does God have faith in?

Another easy question to answer if you would use what the Bible says. God believes that what He says, will come to pass. He claims as much throughout Scripture, both Old Testament and New Testament. Jesus explained it even more simply in Mark 11:22-24...

So Jesus answered and said to them, “Have faith in God. For assuredly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be removed and be cast into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that those things he says will be done, he will have whatever he says. Therefore I say to you, whatever things you ask when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you will have them.

See? It is actually pretty easy to understand...unless you are a brick wall...

[Justaned]

Ed, I know what "substance" means. I know what "assurance" means. The question is...do you? You have already proven time and time and time again that you will twist and make the Scripture say something completely opposite from what it simply states to fit what you think it should be.

The funny thing is...here is yet another instance of you disagreeing with Dake. Dake has stated that God has faith, and uses faith. I have given Scripture, I have given Dake's notes. You only want to tell me that I don't know what "substance" means, and warn me to "not go there". Whatever, Ed...again, I am arguing with brick wall...

Since faith is a gift of God where does God get his faith? What does God have faith in?

The answer is in your question...God is the one giving the gift...He already has it, or else, He would not be able to give it.

Ed: What does God have faith in?

Another easy question to answer if you would use what the Bible says. God believes that what He says, will come to pass. He claims as much throughout Scripture, both Old Testament and New Testament. Jesus explained it even more simply in Mark 11:22-24...

So Jesus answered and said to them, “Have faith in God. For assuredly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be removed and be cast into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that those things he says will be done, he will have whatever he says. Therefore I say to you, whatever things you ask when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you will have them.

See? It is actually pretty easy to understand...unless you are a brick wall...

Your answer to what does God use faith for is that God believes that what He says will come to pass. Again I ask is that faith or intrinsic knowledge of God capabilities. Let us go back to my loaf of bread. One could say I'm using faith when I reach out to pick up a loaf of bread. But it is not really faith but rather the knowledge that I'm capable of lifting the loaf.
Faith to me is displayed when I hope for something I'm not able to do myself. I can't think of anything God is not able to do Himself.

[cpbeller]

Ed...here is the biblical definition of faith.

Hebrews 11:1 AMP

Now faith is the assurance (the confirmation, the title deed) of the things [we] hope for, being the proof of things [we] do not see and the conviction of their reality [faith perceiving as real fact what is not revealed to the senses].

Argue with God over His definition of faith. I am finished talking to the brick wall...It is so incredibly simple to understand, that it takes an educated man to misunderstand it.

[Justaned]

Ed...here is the biblical definition of faith.

Hebrews 11:1 AMP

Now faith is the assurance (the confirmation, the title deed) of the things [we] hope for, being the proof of things [we] do not see and the conviction of their reality [faith perceiving as real fact what is not revealed to the senses].

Argue with God over His definition of faith. I am finished talking to the brick wall...It is so incredibly simple to understand, that it takes an educated man to misunderstand it.

I have no argument with you or God on the defintion. I just don't see God using faith in the light that He has to hope for what He spoke into existence or use it as proof for thing not seen since it appears when God speaks it.

The last statement is excellent (Faith is perceiving as real fact what is not revealed to the senses.) That never happens to God if God thinks it, it IS reality, God does not have to perceived it because it is not revealed to His sense.

[bibleman]

Ed my friend,

I hate to bring it up but... You are wrong again, and you disagree with Dake for the umpteen time!

Above you ignorantly said: "God gives us faith but God Himself does not move in faith."

Notice:

"Even God has faith in all He does (Rom. 4:17; 1Cor. 13:13). Finis Jennings Dake, Dake's Annotated Reference Bible: Containing the Old and New Testaments of the Authorized or King James Version Text, (Lawrenceville, GA: Dake Bible Sales, Inc., 1997), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, Under: "Chapter 6".

Romans 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

So Ed my friend looks like your mind needs to be renewed to the Word of God!

[Grandfather]

Our dear friends Justaned and the Grandfather are intellectually superior benign overlords, guiding humanity to a brighter tomorrow!

I find it very interesting you would make such a remark, since I have shown that my position on God's omniscient is essentially identical to Dake, who says:

"God limits His own attributes to conform to His plan for free moral agents. This makes Him no less omniscient, but enables Him to respect the will of man. Thus, God does not plan man's choices or acts, but holds him responsible for them."

Grandfather,

Your position is NOTHING like Dake's.

Do you have a Dake Bible?

Hmmmnm, my position is nothing like Dake's, how so?
In Dake's notes to Gen 22:12

Dake writes: God limits His own attributes to conform to His plan for free moral agents.
I agree, though I may disagree as to the HOW those attributes are limited in order for God to conform His plan

Dake writes: This makes Him no less omniscient, but enables Him to respect the will of man.
I have said all along God remains omniscient and respects the (free) will of men

Dake writes: Thus, God does not plan man's choices or acts,
I have said all along man have a free choice, that in spite of God being omniscient God does not dictate, demand or force our actions upon us.

Dake writes:but (God) holds him (man) responsible for them.
Again I've said man is free to choose, but God holds them accountable/responsible for their choice.

Please, so I can understand, where are these positions so vastly different that one is NOTHING like the other?

[bibleman]

Hi Grandfather,

Above you said: "I find it very interesting you would make such a remark, since I have shown that my position on God's omniscient is essentially identical to Dake,..."

Here is Dake's views of

God is Omniscient

The question of the omniscience of God is also much misunderstood. The Bible makes many simple statements that limit God's knowledge. There would be no sense to such passages if we do not believe them literally. There is no meaning to them if we take them figuratively. There was no purpose for God to say such things about Himself, if they were untrue.
God gets to know things concerning the free moral actions of men as others do (Gen. 6:5-7; 11:5-7; 18:21; 22:12; 2 Chron. 16:9; Zech. 4:10; Job 12:22; 24:23; Ps. 7:9; 44:21; Ps. 139:1-6; Prov. 24:12; Jer. 17:10; Ezek. 11:5; Rom. 8:27; 1 Thess. 2:4).
God sends messengers throughout the Earth who report to Him of all that they find in the Earth that goes on (Dan. 10:13-21; 11:1; 12:1; Zech. 1:7-11; 6:1-8; Mt. 18:10-11; Heb. 2:4).
God does not take care of every detail of His vast business in all the kingdoms of the universe. His agents help Him and they are found in every part of the universe on missions for God. Certain angels are responsible to God for carrying out His will in almost infinite detail concerning the billions of suns, moons, planets and all free moral agents on them. God does not personally do everything that is done in all acts and events, nor has He known, elected, chosen, or predestinated all the acts and events from all eternity past.

Several times God Himself said of certain events that they did not come into His mind (Jer. 19:5; 32:35; 44:21).
God did not know beforehand that men would become so wicked (Gen. 6:5-7);
that they would plan Babel (Gen. 11:5-7);
that Sodom would be so wicked (Gen. 18:21, 26, 28-32);
that Abraham would actually proceed to offer up Isaac (Gen. 22:12).
God did not know whether it would take one or two or three signs to make Israel believe in Him (Exod. 4:1-12);
or whether testing Israel would cause them to obey Him, or not (Deut. 8:2, 16).
He did not know that Israel would backslide as far as she did (Deut. 32:19-29; Isa. 59:15-19).
Furthermore, He searches to find men whom He can bless (2 Chron. 16:9);
He discovers deep things (Job 12:22);
tries the hearts and reins of men so that He may know them (Ps. 7:9; 44:21; 139:1-6, 23-24; Jer. 17:10; 1 Chron. 28:9; Rom. 8:27; 1 Cor 2:10; Rev. 2:23),
proving all men for the same reason (Ps. 17:3; 66:10; 81:7).

God sends messengers throughout the whole of His vast creations to find out for Him what He wants to know, the same as the head of any other business would be likely to do, so that plans may be made and actions taken accordingly. Examples of such agency constantly reporting to God can be found in Gen. 18:21-22; Dan. 10:13-21; 11:1; 12:1; Zech. 1:7-11; 6:1-8; Mt. 18:10-11; Heb. 1:14; 2:2; Rev. 1:1; 7:1-3; 8:2-13; 9:1; 14:6-20; 15:1-8; 16:1-21; 18:21; 22:6, 8-9, 16.

Finis J. Dake, God's Plan for Man, (Lawrenceville, GA: Dake Publishing, Inc., 2004), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, 62.

So according to you YOUR views are God's omniscience is identical to the above by Dake.

Is that right?

[Grandfather]

Hi Grandfather,

Above you said: "I find it very interesting you would make such a remark, since I have shown that my position on God's omniscient is essentially identical to Dake,..."

Here is Dake's views of

God is Omniscient

The question of the omniscience of God is also much misunderstood. The Bible makes many simple statements that limit God's knowledge. There would be no sense to such passages if we do not believe them literally. There is no meaning to them if we take them figuratively. There was no purpose for God to say such things about Himself, if they were untrue.
God gets to know things concerning the free moral actions of men as others do (Gen. 6:5-7; 11:5-7; 18:21; 22:12; 2 Chron. 16:9; Zech. 4:10; Job 12:22; 24:23; Ps. 7:9; 44:21; Ps. 139:1-6; Prov. 24:12; Jer. 17:10; Ezek. 11:5; Rom. 8:27; 1 Thess. 2:4).
God sends messengers throughout the Earth who report to Him of all that they find in the Earth that goes on (Dan. 10:13-21; 11:1; 12:1; Zech. 1:7-11; 6:1-8; Mt. 18:10-11; Heb. 2:4).
God does not take care of every detail of His vast business in all the kingdoms of the universe. His agents help Him and they are found in every part of the universe on missions for God. Certain angels are responsible to God for carrying out His will in almost infinite detail concerning the billions of suns, moons, planets and all free moral agents on them. God does not personally do everything that is done in all acts and events, nor has He known, elected, chosen, or predestinated all the acts and events from all eternity past.

Several times God Himself said of certain events that they did not come into His mind (Jer. 19:5; 32:35; 44:21).
God did not know beforehand that men would become so wicked (Gen. 6:5-7);
that they would plan Babel (Gen. 11:5-7);
that Sodom would be so wicked (Gen. 18:21, 26, 28-32);
that Abraham would actually proceed to offer up Isaac (Gen. 22:12).
God did not know whether it would take one or two or three signs to make Israel believe in Him (Exod. 4:1-12);
or whether testing Israel would cause them to obey Him, or not (Deut. 8:2, 16).
He did not know that Israel would backslide as far as she did (Deut. 32:19-29; Isa. 59:15-19).
Furthermore, He searches to find men whom He can bless (2 Chron. 16:9);
He discovers deep things (Job 12:22);
tries the hearts and reins of men so that He may know them (Ps. 7:9; 44:21; 139:1-6, 23-24; Jer. 17:10; 1 Chron. 28:9; Rom. 8:27; 1 Cor 2:10; Rev. 2:23),
proving all men for the same reason (Ps. 17:3; 66:10; 81:7).

God sends messengers throughout the whole of His vast creations to find out for Him what He wants to know, the same as the head of any other business would be likely to do, so that plans may be made and actions taken accordingly. Examples of such agency constantly reporting to God can be found in Gen. 18:21-22; Dan. 10:13-21; 11:1; 12:1; Zech. 1:7-11; 6:1-8; Mt. 18:10-11; Heb. 1:14; 2:2; Rev. 1:1; 7:1-3; 8:2-13; 9:1; 14:6-20; 15:1-8; 16:1-21; 18:21; 22:6, 8-9, 16.

Finis J. Dake, God's Plan for Man, (Lawrenceville, GA: Dake Publishing, Inc., 2004), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, 62.

So according to you YOUR views are God's omniscience is identical to the above by Dake.

Is that right?

Why are you attempting to re-direct my question?
What is the vast difference between what I posted and what Dake said about Gen 22:12?
Please answer that first and then we can see if we can follow the rabbit trail you seek to lead us on.

Besides, did I use the word INDENTICAL? I don't thing so, perhaps we should check.

[bibleman]

Hi Grandfather,

Above you said: "I find it very interesting you would make such a remark, since I have shown that my position on God's omniscient is essentially identical to Dake,..."

Here is Dake's views of

God is Omniscient

The question of the omniscience of God is also much misunderstood. The Bible makes many simple statements that limit God's knowledge. There would be no sense to such passages if we do not believe them literally. There is no meaning to them if we take them figuratively. There was no purpose for God to say such things about Himself, if they were untrue.
God gets to know things concerning the free moral actions of men as others do (Gen. 6:5-7; 11:5-7; 18:21; 22:12; 2 Chron. 16:9; Zech. 4:10; Job 12:22; 24:23; Ps. 7:9; 44:21; Ps. 139:1-6; Prov. 24:12; Jer. 17:10; Ezek. 11:5; Rom. 8:27; 1 Thess. 2:4).
God sends messengers throughout the Earth who report to Him of all that they find in the Earth that goes on (Dan. 10:13-21; 11:1; 12:1; Zech. 1:7-11; 6:1-8; Mt. 18:10-11; Heb. 2:4).
God does not take care of every detail of His vast business in all the kingdoms of the universe. His agents help Him and they are found in every part of the universe on missions for God. Certain angels are responsible to God for carrying out His will in almost infinite detail concerning the billions of suns, moons, planets and all free moral agents on them. God does not personally do everything that is done in all acts and events, nor has He known, elected, chosen, or predestinated all the acts and events from all eternity past.

Several times God Himself said of certain events that they did not come into His mind (Jer. 19:5; 32:35; 44:21).
God did not know beforehand that men would become so wicked (Gen. 6:5-7);
that they would plan Babel (Gen. 11:5-7);
that Sodom would be so wicked (Gen. 18:21, 26, 28-32);
that Abraham would actually proceed to offer up Isaac (Gen. 22:12).
God did not know whether it would take one or two or three signs to make Israel believe in Him (Exod. 4:1-12);
or whether testing Israel would cause them to obey Him, or not (Deut. 8:2, 16).
He did not know that Israel would backslide as far as she did (Deut. 32:19-29; Isa. 59:15-19).
Furthermore, He searches to find men whom He can bless (2 Chron. 16:9);
He discovers deep things (Job 12:22);
tries the hearts and reins of men so that He may know them (Ps. 7:9; 44:21; 139:1-6, 23-24; Jer. 17:10; 1 Chron. 28:9; Rom. 8:27; 1 Cor 2:10; Rev. 2:23),
proving all men for the same reason (Ps. 17:3; 66:10; 81:7).

God sends messengers throughout the whole of His vast creations to find out for Him what He wants to know, the same as the head of any other business would be likely to do, so that plans may be made and actions taken accordingly. Examples of such agency constantly reporting to God can be found in Gen. 18:21-22; Dan. 10:13-21; 11:1; 12:1; Zech. 1:7-11; 6:1-8; Mt. 18:10-11; Heb. 1:14; 2:2; Rev. 1:1; 7:1-3; 8:2-13; 9:1; 14:6-20; 15:1-8; 16:1-21; 18:21; 22:6, 8-9, 16.

Finis J. Dake, God's Plan for Man, (Lawrenceville, GA: Dake Publishing, Inc., 2004), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, 62.

So according to you YOUR views are God's omniscience is identical to the above by Dake.

Is that right?

Why are you attempting to re-direct my question?
What is the vast difference between what I posted and what Dake said about Gen 22:12?
Please answer that first and then we can see if we can follow the rabbit trail you seek to lead us on.

Besides, did I use the word INDENTICAL? I don't thing so, perhaps we should check.

Hi Grandfather,

Here is your quote: "I find it very interesting you would make such a remark, since I have shown that my position on God's omniscient is essentially identical to Dake,..."

If you will read the Dake material I posted you will see that you are NOT identical in your view toward Dake.

[Grandfather]

Hi Grandfather,

Here is your quote: "I find it very interesting you would make such a remark, since I have shown that my position on God's omniscient is essentially identical to Dake,..."

If you will read the Dake material I posted you will see that you are NOT identical in your view toward Dake.

I never said my position was IDENTICAL did I? In the context of the discussion I said that my view (on God's being omnicient in Gen 22:12) was ESSENTIALLY the same, not IDENTIALLY

In Dake's notes to Gen 22:12

Dake writes: God limits His own attributes to conform to His plan for free moral agents.
I agree, though I may disagree as to the HOW those attributes are limited in order for God to conform His plan

Dake writes: This makes Him no less omniscient, but enables Him to respect the will of man.
I have said all along God remains omniscient and respects the (free) will of men

Dake writes: Thus, God does not plan man's choices or acts,
I have said all along man have a free choice, that in spite of God being omniscient God does not dictate, demand or force our actions upon us.

Dake writes:but (God) holds him (man) responsible for them.
Again I've said man is free to choose, but God holds them accountable/responsible for their choice.

On the 3 of the 4 points above I am in full agreement
On the 1st of the 4 I agree in principle, but disagree with the "how"

Please explain to me, why agreement on 3 1/2 points is not ESSENTIALLY the same?
Also explain why the disagreement on the "how" is of primary importance to the point that is supercedes the agreement with the other 3 points.