Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Is God in the "Eternal Now"?

[bibleman]

Hi Grandfather,

Here is your quote: "I find it very interesting you would make such a remark, since I have shown that my position on God's omniscient is essentially identical to Dake,..."

If you will read the Dake material I posted you will see that you are NOT identical in your view toward Dake.

I never said my position was IDENTICAL did I? In the context of the discussion I said that my view (on God's being omnicient in Gen 22:12) was ESSENTIALLY the same, not IDENTIALLY

In Dake's notes to Gen 22:12

Dake writes: God limits His own attributes to conform to His plan for free moral agents.
I agree, though I may disagree as to the HOW those attributes are limited in order for God to conform His plan

Dake writes: This makes Him no less omniscient, but enables Him to respect the will of man.
I have said all along God remains omniscient and respects the (free) will of men

Dake writes: Thus, God does not plan man's choices or acts,
I have said all along man have a free choice, that in spite of God being omniscient God does not dictate, demand or force our actions upon us.

Dake writes:but (God) holds him (man) responsible for them.
Again I've said man is free to choose, but God holds them accountable/responsible for their choice.

On the 3 of the 4 points above I am in full agreement
On the 1st of the 4 I agree in principle, but disagree with the "how"

Please explain to me, why agreement on 3 1/2 points is not ESSENTIALLY the same?
Also explain why the disagreement on the "how" is of primary importance to the point that is supercedes the agreement with the other 3 points.

No Grandfather,

You said: "essentially identical"

However you and I both know that you don't agree with Dake on this issue.

[Grandfather]

Hi Grandfather,

Here is your quote: "I find it very interesting you would make such a remark, since I have shown that my position on God's omniscient is essentially identical to Dake,..."

If you will read the Dake material I posted you will see that you are NOT identical in your view toward Dake.

I never said my position was IDENTICAL did I? In the context of the discussion I said that my view (on God's being omnicient in Gen 22:12) was ESSENTIALLY the same, not IDENTIALLY

In Dake's notes to Gen 22:12

Dake writes: God limits His own attributes to conform to His plan for free moral agents.
I agree, though I may disagree as to the HOW those attributes are limited in order for God to conform His plan

Dake writes: This makes Him no less omniscient, but enables Him to respect the will of man.
I have said all along God remains omniscient and respects the (free) will of men

Dake writes: Thus, God does not plan man's choices or acts,
I have said all along man have a free choice, that in spite of God being omniscient God does not dictate, demand or force our actions upon us.

Dake writes:but (God) holds him (man) responsible for them.
Again I've said man is free to choose, but God holds them accountable/responsible for their choice.

On the 3 of the 4 points above I am in full agreement
On the 1st of the 4 I agree in principle, but disagree with the "how"

Please explain to me, why agreement on 3 1/2 points is not ESSENTIALLY the same?
Also explain why the disagreement on the "how" is of primary importance to the point that is supercedes the agreement with the other 3 points.

No Grandfather,

You said: "essentially identical"

However you and I both know that you don't agree with Dake on this issue.

Do we? Please show us all, where "in essence" my position and Dake's on Gen 22:12 are in strong disagreement with each other?

Is the "HOW" of how God limited his omniscient power the essential element of Gen 22:12?

Or are the essential elements :
That despite any limits God is still omniscient?
That even with God being omniscient, God does not plan or force man's choice?
And that man still is a free moral agent and bears the consequences of his actions.

Please let me know what you think the main point of this recorded event is/was? Was it to show us that God had limited omniscient power? Or was it to show that Abraham was tested and made a free will decision to obey God and received the consequences of making that decision?

Please elaborate.

[bibleman]

Hi Grandfather,

Here is your quote: "I find it very interesting you would make such a remark, since I have shown that my position on God's omniscient is essentially identical to Dake,..."

If you will read the Dake material I posted you will see that you are NOT identical in your view toward Dake.

I never said my position was IDENTICAL did I? In the context of the discussion I said that my view (on God's being omnicient in Gen 22:12) was ESSENTIALLY the same, not IDENTIALLY

In Dake's notes to Gen 22:12

Dake writes: God limits His own attributes to conform to His plan for free moral agents.
I agree, though I may disagree as to the HOW those attributes are limited in order for God to conform His plan

Dake writes: This makes Him no less omniscient, but enables Him to respect the will of man.
I have said all along God remains omniscient and respects the (free) will of men

Dake writes: Thus, God does not plan man's choices or acts,
I have said all along man have a free choice, that in spite of God being omniscient God does not dictate, demand or force our actions upon us.

Dake writes:but (God) holds him (man) responsible for them.
Again I've said man is free to choose, but God holds them accountable/responsible for their choice.

On the 3 of the 4 points above I am in full agreement
On the 1st of the 4 I agree in principle, but disagree with the "how"

Please explain to me, why agreement on 3 1/2 points is not ESSENTIALLY the same?
Also explain why the disagreement on the "how" is of primary importance to the point that is supercedes the agreement with the other 3 points.

No Grandfather,

You said: "essentially identical"

However you and I both know that you don't agree with Dake on this issue.

Do we? Please show us all, where "in essence" my position and Dake's on Gen 22:12 are in strong disagreement with each other?

Is the "HOW" of how God limited his omniscient power the essential element of Gen 22:12?

Or are the essential elements :
That despite any limits God is still omniscient?
That even with God being omniscient, God does not plan or force man's choice?
And that man still is a free moral agent and bears the consequences of his actions.

Please let me know what you think the main point of this recorded event is/was? Was it to show us that God had limited omniscient power? Or was it to show that Abraham was tested and made a free will decision to obey God and received the consequences of making that decision?

Please elaborate.

For the LAST time... Here is Dake's position.

DO YOU AGREE WITH IT?

God is Omniscient

The question of the omniscience of God is also much misunderstood. The Bible makes many simple statements that limit God's knowledge. There would be no sense to such passages if we do not believe them literally. There is no meaning to them if we take them figuratively. There was no purpose for God to say such things about Himself, if they were untrue.
God gets to know things concerning the free moral actions of men as others do (Gen. 6:5-7; 11:5-7; 18:21; 22:12; 2 Chron. 16:9; Zech. 4:10; Job 12:22; 24:23; Ps. 7:9; 44:21; Ps. 139:1-6; Prov. 24:12; Jer. 17:10; Ezek. 11:5; Rom. 8:27; 1 Thess. 2:4).
God sends messengers throughout the Earth who report to Him of all that they find in the Earth that goes on (Dan. 10:13-21; 11:1; 12:1; Zech. 1:7-11; 6:1-8; Mt. 18:10-11; Heb. 2:4).
God does not take care of every detail of His vast business in all the kingdoms of the universe. His agents help Him and they are found in every part of the universe on missions for God. Certain angels are responsible to God for carrying out His will in almost infinite detail concerning the billions of suns, moons, planets and all free moral agents on them. God does not personally do everything that is done in all acts and events, nor has He known, elected, chosen, or predestinated all the acts and events from all eternity past.

Several times God Himself said of certain events that they did not come into His mind (Jer. 19:5; 32:35; 44:21).
God did not know beforehand that men would become so wicked (Gen. 6:5-7);
that they would plan Babel (Gen. 11:5-7);
that Sodom would be so wicked (Gen. 18:21, 26, 28-32);
that Abraham would actually proceed to offer up Isaac (Gen. 22:12).
God did not know whether it would take one or two or three signs to make Israel believe in Him (Exod. 4:1-12);
or whether testing Israel would cause them to obey Him, or not (Deut. 8:2, 16).
He did not know that Israel would backslide as far as she did (Deut. 32:19-29; Isa. 59:15-19).
Furthermore, He searches to find men whom He can bless (2 Chron. 16:9);
He discovers deep things (Job 12:22);
tries the hearts and reins of men so that He may know them (Ps. 7:9; 44:21; 139:1-6, 23-24; Jer. 17:10; 1 Chron. 28:9; Rom. 8:27; 1 Cor 2:10; Rev. 2:23),
proving all men for the same reason (Ps. 17:3; 66:10; 81:7).

God sends messengers throughout the whole of His vast creations to find out for Him what He wants to know, the same as the head of any other business would be likely to do, so that plans may be made and actions taken accordingly. Examples of such agency constantly reporting to God can be found in Gen. 18:21-22; Dan. 10:13-21; 11:1; 12:1; Zech. 1:7-11; 6:1-8; Mt. 18:10-11; Heb. 1:14; 2:2; Rev. 1:1; 7:1-3; 8:2-13; 9:1; 14:6-20; 15:1-8; 16:1-21; 18:21; 22:6, 8-9, 16.

Finis J. Dake, God's Plan for Man, (Lawrenceville, GA: Dake Publishing, Inc., 2004), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, 62.

[scottae316]

WOW, you guys are all WRONG, this thread started out with the bogie man Roman Catholic idea that time is some type of thing that has actual being substance and power to talking about God having faith. I guess it takes faith to believe what you guys are saying about time instead of the plain simple testament of Scripture and our God given common sense, males me think this is and

[Ironman]

We also know God travels the universe yet to us what is impossible since the universe is billions of light years across. If God is restrained by time how could he see the ends of the universe yet be here at an one moment to hear our prayers.

God is not here, hearing our prayers. God is in Heaven, unless He is on some mission somewhere checking out the running of His realm by those placed in charge of that particular realm, including the Earth and then only if He feels He has reason to!

Jesus, in His glorified body, after the Father raised Him went to Heaven and back in one day! We know Heaven is in the northern part of the universe, ( Psa 75:6-7, For promotion cometh neither from the east, nor from the west, nor from the south. v.7 But God is the judge; He putteth down one, and setteth up another.)

The planet Heaven, where God lives is so far away from the Earth we have not found it, either with the most powerful telescopes on earth, or with the hubbel scope, or with space probes sent out to explore the planets. We do know Heaven is much further away from Earth than the moon.

From the moment Apollo 11 re-ignited its engine to leave its orbit around earth until it reached its lunar orbit, the elapsed time was 73 hrs., and time taken was just one way.

Jesus left the earth to speak with the Father, How long He was with the Father is also not known, but He went to heaven and returned in only one day. Its not the time factor that's the issue, its the method of and speed of travel God and Jesus use that we don't know anything about!

[Justaned]

We also know God travels the universe yet to us what is impossible since the universe is billions of light years across. If God is restrained by time how could he see the ends of the universe yet be here at an one moment to hear our prayers.

God is not here, hearing our prayers. God is in Heaven, unless He is on some mission somewhere checking out the running of His realm by those placed in charge of that particular realm, including the Earth and then only if He feels He has reason to!

Jesus, in His glorified body, after the Father raised Him went to Heaven and back in one day! We know Heaven is in the northern part of the universe, ( Psa 75:6-7, For promotion cometh neither from the east, nor from the west, nor from the south. v.7 But God is the judge; He putteth down one, and setteth up another.)

The planet Heaven, where God lives is so far away from the Earth we have not found it, either with the most powerful telescopes on earth, or with the hubbel scope, or with space probes sent out to explore the planets. We do know Heaven is much further away from Earth than the moon.

From the moment Apollo 11 re-ignited its engine to leave its orbit around earth until it reached its lunar orbit, the elapsed time was 73 hrs., and time taken was just one way.

Jesus left the earth to speak with the Father, How long He was with the Father is also not known, but He went to heaven and returned in only one day. Its not the time factor that's the issue, its the method of and speed of travel God and Jesus use that we don't know anything about!

If Christ and the Holy Spirit aren't dwelling within you, you need to get saved.

[Ironman]

We also know God travels the universe yet to us what is impossible since the universe is billions of light years across. If God is restrained by time how could he see the ends of the universe yet be here at an one moment to hear our prayers.

God is not here, hearing our prayers. God is in Heaven, unless He is on some mission somewhere checking out the running of His realm by those placed in charge of that particular realm, including the Earth and then only if He feels He has reason to!

Jesus, in His glorified body, after the Father raised Him went to Heaven and back in one day! We know Heaven is in the northern part of the universe, ( Psa 75:6-7, For promotion cometh neither from the east, nor from the west, nor from the south. v.7 But God is the judge; He putteth down one, and setteth up another.)

The planet Heaven, where God lives is so far away from the Earth we have not found it, either with the most powerful telescopes on earth, or with the hubbel scope, or with space probes sent out to explore the planets. We do know Heaven is much further away from Earth than the moon.

From the moment Apollo 11 re-ignited its engine to leave its orbit around earth until it reached its lunar orbit, the elapsed time was 73 hrs., and time taken was just one way.

Jesus left the earth to speak with the Father, How long He was with the Father is also not known, but He went to heaven and returned in only one day. Its not the time factor that's the issue, its the method of and speed of travel God and Jesus use that we don't know anything about!

If Christ and the Holy Spirit aren't dwelling within you, you need to get saved.

How God travels throughout His creation, and time has nothing to do with my salvation?

You have the ability to compress the most Scriptures and most words into the smallest ideas of any man I know. You seem to know nothing and you think you know everything. Maybe you should have taken on a political career.