Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ The passage all liberals hate!

[Justaned]

Wow Ed, according to you God does not know what the heck he is doing lol. See answers like this is why I don't blame atheist for the way they view god.

Here is Ed's god: according to his reply.
I know what you are going to do anyway but I am still going to allow calamity and testing and even though I know beforehand if you will be faithful or not. I even told Abraham when I tested him, "now I know that you will be faithful" but I was joking about that, I really did know haha. And I knew the horror that sin was going to bring into the world and I am even going to put a tree in the garden to test you to show you have free will and for your own good... I knew what was going to happen and a lot of my creation is going to hell they will kill each other, war, rape and plunder, But I need to show them they have free will and it is for their own good, to help them to be stronger. And this one angel that I will create is going to fall and lead a rebellion against me, but I will create him any way so I can show man he has free will and it is for their own good. Death destruction and disuses is going to come out of this, but it is for their own good so they my creation can see what they are made of, all of this evil is for them

No that is not my God my God is in control and does everything in order. It is man and man's freewill that puts a spin to man's view of the world.
If God didn't know Abraham was going to be faithful why would he promise Abraham that his heirs would be in number like the sand of sea. Heavy promise to someone you are not sure of. If God didn't know Abraham was going to be faithful why did God give him the promise land. That could have been a huge problem if Abraham wasn't faithful.

God know Abraham could be faithful but Abraham didn't. He had slipped before, lying about Sarah his wife to the two kings, sleeping with Hagar with the result being Ishmael. Once Abraham was tested and proven to himself that he was faithful to God we see no more slip ups.

God created man with a free will. God has to allow man to exercise that free will.

Now answer my question why do you have such a hard time with man having a free will and God knowing what man will choose?

[Justaned]

Can someone tell me why they like the idea better that God has no idea what man is going to do next, has no idea what is going to happen next and is surprised.

It seems everyone wants to make God the bemused spectator watching what happens on earth and shaking his head when God sees how evil man is.

Doesn't it worry you that even God is surprised?


My God on the other hand is actively involved in my life, guiding and directing me. He has his hand on the pulse of the world and even knows the number of hairs on my head. When I pray I know God hears and responses knowing exactly what must be done to accomplish God's will in my life and in the world. God is aware of every breath I take and I'm assured I will not stop breathing for good until my task here on earth is completed to God satisfaction. At that time God will call me home to my reward. I will hear well done good and faithful servant come into your rest. I will have hit the mark of the target Paul talked about, I will have ran the race Paul tells us we are running.

[Rocky]

Wow Ed, according to you God does not know what the heck he is doing lol. See answers like this is why I don't blame atheist for the way they view god.

Here is Ed's god: according to his reply.
I know what you are going to do anyway but I am still going to allow calamity and testing and even though I know beforehand if you will be faithful or not. I even told Abraham when I tested him, "now I know that you will be faithful" but I was joking about that, I really did know haha. And I knew the horror that sin was going to bring into the world and I am even going to put a tree in the garden to test you to show you have free will and for your own good... I knew what was going to happen and a lot of my creation is going to hell they will kill each other, war, rape and plunder, But I need to show them they have free will and it is for their own good, to help them to be stronger. And this one angel that I will create is going to fall and lead a rebellion against me, but I will create him any way so I can show man he has free will and it is for their own good. Death destruction and disuses is going to come out of this, but it is for their own good so they my creation can see what they are made of, all of this evil is for them

No that is not my God my God is in control and does everything in order. It is man and man's freewill that puts a spin to man's view of the world.
If God didn't know Abraham was going to be faithful why would he promise Abraham that his heirs would be in number like the sand of sea. Heavy promise to someone you are not sure of. If God didn't know Abraham was going to be faithful why did God give him the promise land. That could have been a huge problem if Abraham wasn't faithful.

God know Abraham could be faithful but Abraham didn't. He had slipped before, lying about Sarah his wife to the two kings, sleeping with Hagar with the result being Ishmael. Once Abraham was tested and proven to himself that he was faithful to God we see no more slip ups.

God created man with a free will. God has to allow man to exercise that free will.

Now answer my question why do you have such a hard time with man having a free will and God knowing what man will choose?

I don't have a problem with man having free will, I completely believe that. But the bible is clear at times God does not know what man will choose at times, hence the testing of free will. This is shown with abraham. All the toughed question that I asked you can be answered in the bible. God did not know that Abraham was going to be faithful hence testing him. I assure you God is definitely concerned with the outcome or else we would not be justified by works as well as faith as James points out. Abraham showed God he was faithful which is why he was justified. The testing is the same with Adam and Eve, Adam and Eve's faithfullness had to be tested before he was going to allow them to live forever this is why the the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was put there. I am saying God chooses not to know so that the free will can be tested. To know beforehand takes free will out of it because then it is already determined by foreknowledge that is not free will, that is control in a sence being controlled by foreknowledge. And I also know God knows certain future events this is shown in the bible as well, but this is primarily with Eschatology and God knowing things that are already decided in the heavenlies and God professing of what he is going to do, I am reminded of mosses changing God's mind of what He was going to do... But when it comes to the free will I 100% agree with Dake and with what the bible shows about God limiting himself in certain dealings with free moral agents.

[Justaned]

Wow Ed, according to you God does not know what the heck he is doing lol. See answers like this is why I don't blame atheist for the way they view god.

Here is Ed's god: according to his reply.
I know what you are going to do anyway but I am still going to allow calamity and testing and even though I know beforehand if you will be faithful or not. I even told Abraham when I tested him, "now I know that you will be faithful" but I was joking about that, I really did know haha. And I knew the horror that sin was going to bring into the world and I am even going to put a tree in the garden to test you to show you have free will and for your own good... I knew what was going to happen and a lot of my creation is going to hell they will kill each other, war, rape and plunder, But I need to show them they have free will and it is for their own good, to help them to be stronger. And this one angel that I will create is going to fall and lead a rebellion against me, but I will create him any way so I can show man he has free will and it is for their own good. Death destruction and disuses is going to come out of this, but it is for their own good so they my creation can see what they are made of, all of this evil is for them

No that is not my God my God is in control and does everything in order. It is man and man's freewill that puts a spin to man's view of the world.
If God didn't know Abraham was going to be faithful why would he promise Abraham that his heirs would be in number like the sand of sea. Heavy promise to someone you are not sure of. If God didn't know Abraham was going to be faithful why did God give him the promise land. That could have been a huge problem if Abraham wasn't faithful.

God know Abraham could be faithful but Abraham didn't. He had slipped before, lying about Sarah his wife to the two kings, sleeping with Hagar with the result being Ishmael. Once Abraham was tested and proven to himself that he was faithful to God we see no more slip ups.

God created man with a free will. God has to allow man to exercise that free will.

Now answer my question why do you have such a hard time with man having a free will and God knowing what man will choose?

I don't have a problem with man having free will, I completely believe that. But the bible is clear at times God does not know what man will choose at times, hence the testing of free will. This is shown with abraham. All the toughed question that I asked you can be answered in the bible. God did not know that Abraham was going to be faithful hence testing him. I assure you God is definitely concerned with the outcome or else we would not be justified by works as well as faith as James points out. Abraham showed God he was faithful which is why he was justified. The testing is the same with Adam and Eve, Adam and Eve's faithfullness had to be tested before he was going to allow them to live forever this is why the the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was put there. I am saying God chooses not to know so that the free will can be tested. To know beforehand takes free will out of it because then it is already determined by foreknowledge that is not free will, that is control in a sence being controlled by foreknowledge. And I also know God knows certain future events this is shown in the bible as well, but this is primarily with Eschatology and God knowing things that are already decided in the heavenlies and God professing of what he is going to do, I am reminded of mosses changing God's mind of what He was going to do... But when it comes to the free will I 100% agree with Dake and with what the bible shows about God limiting himself in certain dealings with free moral agents.

Again my question why does God knowing the choice man will make effect man's free will ability to make that choice?
Man's faith and obedience can still be seen in the choice.

You keep saying foreknowledge is not free will. And I'm asking why? If God does nothing to effect man's decision and man makes that decision of his own free will how did God knowing what decision man would make effect the process?

[Rocky]

Ed Wrote:
Again my question why does God knowing the choice man will make effect man's free will ability to make that choice?
Man's faith and obedience can still be seen in the choice.

You keep saying foreknowledge is not free will. And I'm asking why? If God does nothing to effect man's decision and man makes that decision of his own free will how did God knowing what decision man would make effect the process?

Because it is an oxymoron so to speak. Hmm I have a free choice but it is already set in stone what I will do. Why not just ask
God what I will do and do that, and it really does not matter what I do because it is already known and set in stone what I will do any way, so why try why even ask God to move in any thing, I mean why even pray? Its already known and set in stone. lol. Ed you have not been through much have you? And, Because according to you it is already set in stone of what people will do, like it is already written, hence the choice has been made for us by foreknowledge, it is predestined in a sense. How is that a free choice if it is already set in stone what I will do?, that is almost predestination. Another thing I have noticed is that when you are shown plain scripture about God limiting himself in his foreknowledge in dealing with the free will in times of testing, you just say it is a "figure of speech", or you twist it or manipulate it somehow and say "yes, you gave scripture but thats not what it means" even though the subject matter is clear and concise. Its seems you have a tendency to over spiritualize the literal meaning of the scriptures that they are conveying about this. Ed The bible has shown God being surprised, sorry, and not knowing ahead of time of mans actions. Even physically going down and seeing things for him self, God even has angels to report to him. If you are right then you must rip those scripture out of the bible or say its an allegory or a "figure of speech." When this is pointed out to you, you say it was a figure of speech. This is a dangerous way to interpret the bible in my opinion because this is how false ideas get started. What else can we say is a figure of speech to twist the scriptures? I just find it easier to take the bible for what it says.

[Justaned]

Ed Wrote:
Again my question why does God knowing the choice man will make effect man's free will ability to make that choice?
Man's faith and obedience can still be seen in the choice.

You keep saying foreknowledge is not free will. And I'm asking why? If God does nothing to effect man's decision and man makes that decision of his own free will how did God knowing what decision man would make effect the process?

Because it is an oxymoron so to speak. Hmm I have a free choice but it is already set in stone what I will do. Why not just ask
God what I will do and do that, and it really does not matter what I do because it is already known and set in stone what I will do any way, so why try why even ask God to move in any thing, I mean why even pray? Its already known and set in stone. lol. Ed you have not been through much have you? And, Because according to you it is already set in stone of what people will do, like it is already written, hence the choice has been made for us by foreknowledge, it is predestined in a sense. How is that a free choice if it is already set in stone what I will do?, that is almost predestination. Another thing I have noticed is that when you are shown plain scripture about God limiting himself in his foreknowledge in dealing with the free will in times of testing, you just say it is a "figure of speech", or you twist it or manipulate it somehow and say "yes, you gave scripture but thats not what it means" even though the subject matter is clear and concise. Its seems you have a tendency to over spiritualize the literal meaning of the scriptures that they are conveying about this. Ed The bible has shown God being surprised, sorry, and not knowing ahead of time of mans actions. Even physically going down and seeing things for him self, God even has angels to report to him. If you are right then you must rip those scripture out of the bible or say its an allegory or a "figure of speech." When this is pointed out to you, you say it was a figure of speech. This is a dangerous way to interpret the bible in my opinion because this is how false ideas get started. What else can we say is a figure of speech to twist the scriptures? I just find it easier to take the bible for what it says.

The thing you miss Rocky is your don't know what you will do until you are faced with the decision. That is when the rubber hits the road. You can say you will do this or that but until you have to make the decision you simply don't know.

Let us say God would simple tell you, you would not believe it. You would say, that's what you say but you don't know." If God gave you proof you would still deny the truthfulness of the proof. The only way you will ever know what you will do is after you have been confronted with the choice and made it.

This is where God shows His love for us he allows us to fall and is there to help us up. God is preparing us to take our place in heaven. It requires us to learn about ourselves and to make the decisions to either grow and get better or to simply enjoy life's pleasures and remain as babes.

God tested Abraham for Abraham's sake and for ours. Otherwise people would always question Abraham's faith. In fact some still do by saying Abraham knew God would stop him and etc.

If God wanted perfect people God could have just created them. What God wants is people that became people of God through their own choices.

Think about it how many tell kids they will be addicted if they take drugs. Every addiction unless it was done to them was done because they thought they could handle it, they were above addiction and there it no way they would let themselves get that low. They had to see for themselves.

The testing is for us God already knows the mettle we are made of.

[Rocky]

Ed Wrote:
Again my question why does God knowing the choice man will make effect man's free will ability to make that choice?
Man's faith and obedience can still be seen in the choice.

You keep saying foreknowledge is not free will. And I'm asking why? If God does nothing to effect man's decision and man makes that decision of his own free will how did God knowing what decision man would make effect the process?

Because it is an oxymoron so to speak. Hmm I have a free choice but it is already set in stone what I will do. Why not just ask
God what I will do and do that, and it really does not matter what I do because it is already known and set in stone what I will do any way, so why try why even ask God to move in any thing, I mean why even pray? Its already known and set in stone. lol. Ed you have not been through much have you? And, Because according to you it is already set in stone of what people will do, like it is already written, hence the choice has been made for us by foreknowledge, it is predestined in a sense. How is that a free choice if it is already set in stone what I will do?, that is almost predestination. Another thing I have noticed is that when you are shown plain scripture about God limiting himself in his foreknowledge in dealing with the free will in times of testing, you just say it is a "figure of speech", or you twist it or manipulate it somehow and say "yes, you gave scripture but thats not what it means" even though the subject matter is clear and concise. Its seems you have a tendency to over spiritualize the literal meaning of the scriptures that they are conveying about this. Ed The bible has shown God being surprised, sorry, and not knowing ahead of time of mans actions. Even physically going down and seeing things for him self, God even has angels to report to him. If you are right then you must rip those scripture out of the bible or say its an allegory or a "figure of speech." When this is pointed out to you, you say it was a figure of speech. This is a dangerous way to interpret the bible in my opinion because this is how false ideas get started. What else can we say is a figure of speech to twist the scriptures? I just find it easier to take the bible for what it says.

The thing you miss Rocky is your don't know what you will do until you are faced with the decision. That is when the rubber hits the road. You can say you will do this or that but until you have to make the decision you simply don't know.

Let us say God would simple tell you, you would not believe it. You would say, that's what you say but you don't know." If God gave you proof you would still deny the truthfulness of the proof. The only way you will ever know what you will do is after you have been confronted with the choice and made it.

This is where God shows His love for us he allows us to fall and is there to help us up. God is preparing us to take our place in heaven. It requires us to learn about ourselves and to make the decisions to either grow and get better or to simply enjoy life's pleasures and remain as babes.

God tested Abraham for Abraham's sake and for ours. Otherwise people would always question Abraham's faith. In fact some still do by saying Abraham knew God would stop him and etc.

If God wanted perfect people God could have just created them. What God wants is people that became people of God through their own choices.

Think about it how many tell kids they will be addicted if they take drugs. Every addiction unless it was done to them was done because they thought they could handle it, they were above addiction and there it no way they would let themselves get that low. They had to see for themselves.

The testing is for us God already knows the mettle we are made of.

I understand, But a lot of what you said here is not what is shown in the bible, Unless you say it is a "figure of speech". This seems more of an opinion then what is actually show in scripture. That's what myself and others have tried to show you. Maybe study this in a DARB or GPFM to gain a better understanding of this. So again, I agree with the bible and Dake on this, Dake gives countless scriptures on this teaching and that cannot be denied unless again you say it is a "figure of speech" the bible never says its a figure of speech..

Oh, and You said:
"The testing is for us God already knows the mettle we are made of"
If that were the case Why did not God tell Abraham, "now you know" instead of "now I know"?

[Justaned]

Ed Wrote:
Again my question why does God knowing the choice man will make effect man's free will ability to make that choice?
Man's faith and obedience can still be seen in the choice.

You keep saying foreknowledge is not free will. And I'm asking why? If God does nothing to effect man's decision and man makes that decision of his own free will how did God knowing what decision man would make effect the process?

Because it is an oxymoron so to speak. Hmm I have a free choice but it is already set in stone what I will do. Why not just ask
God what I will do and do that, and it really does not matter what I do because it is already known and set in stone what I will do any way, so why try why even ask God to move in any thing, I mean why even pray? Its already known and set in stone. lol. Ed you have not been through much have you? And, Because according to you it is already set in stone of what people will do, like it is already written, hence the choice has been made for us by foreknowledge, it is predestined in a sense. How is that a free choice if it is already set in stone what I will do?, that is almost predestination. Another thing I have noticed is that when you are shown plain scripture about God limiting himself in his foreknowledge in dealing with the free will in times of testing, you just say it is a "figure of speech", or you twist it or manipulate it somehow and say "yes, you gave scripture but thats not what it means" even though the subject matter is clear and concise. Its seems you have a tendency to over spiritualize the literal meaning of the scriptures that they are conveying about this. Ed The bible has shown God being surprised, sorry, and not knowing ahead of time of mans actions. Even physically going down and seeing things for him self, God even has angels to report to him. If you are right then you must rip those scripture out of the bible or say its an allegory or a "figure of speech." When this is pointed out to you, you say it was a figure of speech. This is a dangerous way to interpret the bible in my opinion because this is how false ideas get started. What else can we say is a figure of speech to twist the scriptures? I just find it easier to take the bible for what it says.

The thing you miss Rocky is your don't know what you will do until you are faced with the decision. That is when the rubber hits the road. You can say you will do this or that but until you have to make the decision you simply don't know.

Let us say God would simple tell you, you would not believe it. You would say, that's what you say but you don't know." If God gave you proof you would still deny the truthfulness of the proof. The only way you will ever know what you will do is after you have been confronted with the choice and made it.

This is where God shows His love for us he allows us to fall and is there to help us up. God is preparing us to take our place in heaven. It requires us to learn about ourselves and to make the decisions to either grow and get better or to simply enjoy life's pleasures and remain as babes.

God tested Abraham for Abraham's sake and for ours. Otherwise people would always question Abraham's faith. In fact some still do by saying Abraham knew God would stop him and etc.

If God wanted perfect people God could have just created them. What God wants is people that became people of God through their own choices.

Think about it how many tell kids they will be addicted if they take drugs. Every addiction unless it was done to them was done because they thought they could handle it, they were above addiction and there it no way they would let themselves get that low. They had to see for themselves.

The testing is for us God already knows the mettle we are made of.

I understand, But a lot of what you said here is not what is shown in the bible, Unless you say it is a "figure of speech". This seems more of an opinion then what is actually show in scripture. That's what myself and others have tried to show you. Maybe study this in a DARB or GPFM to gain a better understanding of this. So again, I agree with the bible and Dake on this, Dake gives countless scriptures on this teaching and that cannot be denied unless again you say it is a "figure of speech" the bible never says its a figure of speech..

Oh, and You said:
"The testing is for us God already knows the mettle we are made of"
If that were the case Why did not God tell Abraham, "now you know" instead of "now I know"?

Rocky
God clearly declares Himself all knowing. We call it omniscience. Now that is declared throughout scripture in many many places. So it is fact God is all knowing. He even knows your heart, when a sparrow falls to the ground and the number of hairs on your head. So the extent of His knowledge is not just the important things but all things.

Now if God know all things and then says he has come to see. Is God saying he didn't know and needed to come and see or is He explaining His presence before Abraham to demonstrate his mercy but didn't want to reveal that to Abraham?

Of course you will say it is because God didn't know but God has already declared he did know. If he knows man's heart he knew the status of every heart in Sodom. So your interpretation while a literal rendering of scripture does not make any sense. So we either have a conflict or we say no God was using a figure of speech. That is the only options.

Now if we want to invent theology and say God limits Himself sometimes we can explain it that way but nothing in scripture reveals God ever limiting himself. Jesus limited Himself to become a man but never God.

Again if God limited Himself for the citizens of Sodom then why not for everyone? Yet God says He sees the heart of man.

Do you see your interpretation produces conflict and contradiction. Mine make all scripture reconcile with all of scripture.

[bibleman]

Ed Wrote:
Again my question why does God knowing the choice man will make effect man's free will ability to make that choice?
Man's faith and obedience can still be seen in the choice.

You keep saying foreknowledge is not free will. And I'm asking why? If God does nothing to effect man's decision and man makes that decision of his own free will how did God knowing what decision man would make effect the process?

Because it is an oxymoron so to speak. Hmm I have a free choice but it is already set in stone what I will do. Why not just ask
God what I will do and do that, and it really does not matter what I do because it is already known and set in stone what I will do any way, so why try why even ask God to move in any thing, I mean why even pray? Its already known and set in stone. lol. Ed you have not been through much have you? And, Because according to you it is already set in stone of what people will do, like it is already written, hence the choice has been made for us by foreknowledge, it is predestined in a sense. How is that a free choice if it is already set in stone what I will do?, that is almost predestination. Another thing I have noticed is that when you are shown plain scripture about God limiting himself in his foreknowledge in dealing with the free will in times of testing, you just say it is a "figure of speech", or you twist it or manipulate it somehow and say "yes, you gave scripture but thats not what it means" even though the subject matter is clear and concise. Its seems you have a tendency to over spiritualize the literal meaning of the scriptures that they are conveying about this. Ed The bible has shown God being surprised, sorry, and not knowing ahead of time of mans actions. Even physically going down and seeing things for him self, God even has angels to report to him. If you are right then you must rip those scripture out of the bible or say its an allegory or a "figure of speech." When this is pointed out to you, you say it was a figure of speech. This is a dangerous way to interpret the bible in my opinion because this is how false ideas get started. What else can we say is a figure of speech to twist the scriptures? I just find it easier to take the bible for what it says.

The thing you miss Rocky is your don't know what you will do until you are faced with the decision. That is when the rubber hits the road. You can say you will do this or that but until you have to make the decision you simply don't know.

Let us say God would simple tell you, you would not believe it. You would say, that's what you say but you don't know." If God gave you proof you would still deny the truthfulness of the proof. The only way you will ever know what you will do is after you have been confronted with the choice and made it.

This is where God shows His love for us he allows us to fall and is there to help us up. God is preparing us to take our place in heaven. It requires us to learn about ourselves and to make the decisions to either grow and get better or to simply enjoy life's pleasures and remain as babes.

God tested Abraham for Abraham's sake and for ours. Otherwise people would always question Abraham's faith. In fact some still do by saying Abraham knew God would stop him and etc.

If God wanted perfect people God could have just created them. What God wants is people that became people of God through their own choices.

Think about it how many tell kids they will be addicted if they take drugs. Every addiction unless it was done to them was done because they thought they could handle it, they were above addiction and there it no way they would let themselves get that low. They had to see for themselves.

The testing is for us God already knows the mettle we are made of.

I understand, But a lot of what you said here is not what is shown in the bible, Unless you say it is a "figure of speech". This seems more of an opinion then what is actually show in scripture. That's what myself and others have tried to show you. Maybe study this in a DARB or GPFM to gain a better understanding of this. So again, I agree with the bible and Dake on this, Dake gives countless scriptures on this teaching and that cannot be denied unless again you say it is a "figure of speech" the bible never says its a figure of speech..

Oh, and You said:
"The testing is for us God already knows the mettle we are made of"
If that were the case Why did not God tell Abraham, "now you know" instead of "now I know"?

Rocky
God clearly declares Himself all knowing. We call it omniscience. Now that is declared throughout scripture in many many places. So it is fact God is all knowing. He even knows your heart, when a sparrow falls to the ground and the number of hairs on your head. So the extent of His knowledge is not just the important things but all things.

Now if God know all things and then says he has come to see. Is God saying he didn't know and needed to come and see or is He explaining His presence before Abraham to demonstrate his mercy but didn't want to reveal that to Abraham?

Of course you will say it is because God didn't know but God has already declared he did know. If he knows man's heart he knew the status of every heart in Sodom. So your interpretation while a literal rendering of scripture does not make any sense. So we either have a conflict or we say no God was using a figure of speech. That is the only options.

Now if we want to invent theology and say God limits Himself sometimes we can explain it that way but nothing in scripture reveals God ever limiting himself. Jesus limited Himself to become a man but never God.

Again if God limited Himself for the citizens of Sodom then why not for everyone? Yet God says He sees the heart of man.

Do you see your interpretation produces conflict and contradiction. Mine make all scripture reconcile with all of scripture.

Hi Ed,

Above you said: "Do you see your interpretation produces conflict and contradiction. Mine make all scripture reconcile with all of scripture."

Proverbs 12:15 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.

Ed, Ed,, Ed,,, Rocky has spent a lot of time giving Scripture after Scripture - yet you have not heard his counsel. You instead think you are the only one that is right.

Think of it. According to you Rocky is wrong! VictoryWord is Wrong! I am wrong! Ironman is Wrong! Macca is wrong! Dake is Wrong!

You have refused all of this wise counsel even to the point of saying God did NOT say what He said and even God is wrong in your eyes!

Don't you think it is time that you give up your man-made ideas and LISTEN TO COUNSEL?

[Grandfather]

Hi Ed,

Above you said: "Do you see your interpretation produces conflict and contradiction. Mine make all scripture reconcile with all of scripture."

Proverbs 12:15 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.

Ed, Ed,, Ed,,, Rocky has spent a lot of time giving Scripture after Scripture - yet you have not heard his counsel. You instead think you are the only one that is right.

Think of it. According to you Rocky is wrong! VictoryWord is Wrong! I am wrong! Ironman is Wrong! Macca is wrong! Dake is Wrong!

You have refused all of this wise counsel even to the point of saying God did NOT say what He said and even God is wrong in your eyes!

Don't you think it is time that you give up your man-made ideas and LISTEN TO COUNSEL?

Listen to counsel? Why, God doesn't know everything, so he may not know the wise counsel to give? Besides He may change his mind, and the counsel today would not be good for tomorrow. Do we even know if God knows what's going on in this forum? Does He have internet access? Is God wrong? I don't know, why did He ever change his mind if He wasn't wrong?

God is not wrong, but your application of this scripture certainly appears to be.