Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ The passage all liberals hate!

[Justaned]

No! Ed just wants to confuse the simple statement of the text so as to muddy the waters of the pure revelation of God to man
macca

Macca what is the pure revelation here?
Is it that God is limited? Do you believe that?
Or that God was willing to show mercy even for small group of righteous men.

Don't for a minute lose focus of what is important here. The inspection is nothing more that God showing how very merciful He is, not that he is limited in His knowledge of man.

[bibleman]

No! Ed just wants to confuse the simple statement of the text so as to muddy the waters of the pure revelation of God to man
macca

Macca what is the pure revelation here?
Is it that God is limited? Do you believe that?
Or that God was willing to show mercy even for small group of righteous men.

Don't for a minute lose focus of what is important here. The inspection is nothing more that God showing how very merciful He is, not that he is limited in His knowledge of man.

OK...

Choose which one you believe!

Ed: God didn't mean what he said and didn't do what he said he was going to do.

God: Genesis 18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

Well Ed - who would you believe YOU are GOD?

As for me and my BIBLE believing house we will believe the LORD!

[Rocky]

Ed wrote: Again don't get tangled up in free will when you think about this. The fact the God knows something does not preclude man's ability to make a decision.

Ah but Ed the decision has already been made by foreknowledge, it seems that if the decision or actions are already decided by foreknowledge or fate or what ever according to some of your replies, does it not make the free will void?? You may say it does not, However if it is already known what I will do tomorrow then who is pulling the strings us, fate ,or God's foreknowledge? It seems to me, according to your responses my actions are already set in stone and I have no choice really. So basically are you not saying that God's foreknowledge controls us?

[Ironman]

Dear Justaned, you said in answer to my post;

"Ironman
You have a strong argument but I have one question do you think the created can conceive of something the creator never could?
That is problem with your argument. Your saying God said He never thought of such of thing yet man did. In other words the imagination of man no matter how twisted it is is superior to the imagination of God because it is able to conceive of something God could not.

By definition of God that can not happen.

Again don't get tangled up in free will when you think about this. The fact the God knows something does not preclude man's ability to make a decision."

.

[You have a strong argument but I have one question do you think the created can conceive of something the creator never could? ]

My answer is no mate. Why? because God said, "It never entered into His mind that man would become so evil?" God gave mana free will, and God probably knew men could or would turn to sin because if Lucifer, a perfect creation with free will could sin, then man, created not only perfect, but in' GODS IMAGE AND LIKENESS' and given free will, might also sin. Hence the test! And sadly, man failed.

God gave man free will to choose. Some choose not only to sin, but they chose to become even more evil than God could have imagined to the point that God said it never entered into His mind that they could be so evil, and He was sorry He created man!

How about men stealing, bashing an elderly man half to death as happened last night here in my state. That's evil.

Now imagine and 22 year old father brutally raping a 2 year old daughter while the child's mother was out of the home for a short time, so badly that she died in hospital the next day?? That's so evil, I CANNOT IMAGIN A MAN BEING SO BAD. That type of crime would never ever enter into my mind, and if I was the father, or creator of that particular man, it would repent me to my heart that I fathered him, even to the point that I would want to destroy him! In fact if I was the father of that man, I would want to kill him for what he did to my grand daughter!

God did say what he said regarding what He did not know and the fact that this thing did not enter into His mind, and I believe God!

Lets say you were a builder and built a sky scraper. You painstakingly designed it, used on the best materials, took extreme care in its planning, design, construction, where it was erected, and installed every safety mechanism imagined, the building could freely move with any sever earth tremors and any earth quakes no matter how sever that could be thrown against it, it was fail safe, indestructible, and the building was finished.

I call you a week later and tell you your perfect building collapsed and 10,000 people were killed. You ask me what happened, and I say, well a slight breeze eventuated yesterday and the building swayed just slightly with the wind and fell apart, and you say;

"Well it never entered my mind that that would happen?" It pains me that I even constructed it, I will destroy every building I have ever made!

Could I then say, oh, come on Ed, you knew all along that a slight breeze would cause your fail safe building to come crashing down even in a slight breeze!

[Justaned]

Ed wrote: Again don't get tangled up in free will when you think about this. The fact the God knows something does not preclude man's ability to make a decision.

Ah but Ed the decision has already been made by foreknowledge, it seems that if the decision or actions are already decided by foreknowledge or fate or what ever according to some of your replies, does it not make the free will void?? You may say it does not, However if it is already known what I will do tomorrow then who is pulling the strings us, fate ,or God's foreknowledge? It seems to me, according to your responses my actions are already set in stone and I have no choice really. So basically are you not saying that God's foreknowledge controls us?

I don't follow your logic. The fact someone can see the future and knows what decision you will does not effect or negate your ability to make that decision.

[Justaned]

Dear Justaned, you said in answer to my post;

"Ironman
You have a strong argument but I have one question do you think the created can conceive of something the creator never could?
That is problem with your argument. Your saying God said He never thought of such of thing yet man did. In other words the imagination of man no matter how twisted it is is superior to the imagination of God because it is able to conceive of something God could not.

By definition of God that can not happen.

Again don't get tangled up in free will when you think about this. The fact the God knows something does not preclude man's ability to make a decision."

.

[You have a strong argument but I have one question do you think the created can conceive of something the creator never could? ]

My answer is no mate. Why? because God said, "It never entered into His mind that man would become so evil?" God gave mana free will, and God probably knew men could or would turn to sin because if Lucifer, a perfect creation with free will could sin, then man, created not only perfect, but in' GODS IMAGE AND LIKENESS' and given free will, might also sin. Hence the test! And sadly, man failed.

God gave man free will to choose. Some choose not only to sin, but they chose to become even more evil than God could have imagined to the point that God said it never entered into His mind that they could be so evil, and He was sorry He created man!

How about men stealing, bashing an elderly man half to death as happened last night here in my state. That's evil.

Now imagine and 22 year old father brutally raping a 2 year old daughter while the child's mother was out of the home for a short time, so badly that she died in hospital the next day?? That's so evil, I CANNOT IMAGIN A MAN BEING SO BAD. That type of crime would never ever enter into my mind, and if I was the father, or creator of that particular man, it would repent me to my heart that I fathered him, even to the point that I would want to destroy him! In fact if I was the father of that man, I would want to kill him for what he did to my grand daughter!

God did say what he said regarding what He did not know and the fact that this thing did not enter into His mind, and I believe God!

Lets say you were a builder and built a sky scraper. You painstakingly designed it, used on the best materials, took extreme care in its planning, design, construction, where it was erected, and installed every safety mechanism imagined, the building could freely move with any sever earth tremors and any earth quakes no matter how sever that could be thrown against it, it was fail safe, indestructible, and the building was finished.

I call you a week later and tell you your perfect building collapsed and 10,000 people were killed. You ask me what happened, and I say, well a slight breeze eventuated yesterday and the building swayed just slightly with the wind and fell apart, and you say;

"Well it never entered my mind that that would happen?" It pains me that I even constructed it, I will destroy every building I have ever made!

Could I then say, oh, come on Ed, you knew all along that a slight breeze would cause your fail safe building to come crashing down even in a slight breeze!

Again you are missing the point if we take what God said literally as you insist we must that God in effect is saying the created thought of something the creator never thought of. That puts the created in a superior position to the creator.
By definition God is defined as superior to creation on all accounts.

If I say I can't imagine man being so evil to brutally kill their own kid. Does that say I didn't know or is it a way for me to emphasize how horrific the sin was? I believe God stated what he did to emphasize how horrific man had become. I don't think God was shocked or surprised in fact, but I believe God was hoping against hope man would not come down to that. God is not bound by time, God invented time, God transcend time. God can see the creation, Christ on the cross, Pentecost, and Jesus' second coming as sure as you can read this. Time as we know it was created by God it did not exist before then.

[Rocky]

Deleted double post

[Rocky]

Ed wrote: Again don't get tangled up in free will when you think about this. The fact the God knows something does not preclude man's ability to make a decision.

Ah but Ed the decision has already been made by foreknowledge, it seems that if the decision or actions are already decided by foreknowledge or fate or what ever according to some of your replies, does it not make the free will void?? You may say it does not, However if it is already known what I will do tomorrow then who is pulling the strings us, fate ,or God's foreknowledge? It seems to me, according to your responses my actions are already set in stone and I have no choice really. So basically are you not saying that God's foreknowledge controls us?

I don't follow your logic. The fact someone can see the future and knows what decision you will does not effect or negate your ability to make that decision.

I have so many issues with your thinking on this, Umm yes it does because it is already determined by foreknowledge. So it is not me making the decisions because it is already set in stone what I will do. I don't know why you don't see that, but it makes sense to me. I am not sure I like your views on this, not sure I like my decisions and free will to be determined beforehand, to me you make God out to be playing games with us. So God knows every thing by foreknowledge? Hmm I remember reading about a 3 year old getting sexually assaulted and murdered and thrown in a garbage a few years back, so God foreknew that and did nothing?? Let me guess everything happens for a reason right? I have heard some explain it away like maybe God saw that they would have never accepted the Lord so God allowed it, so I guess the sexual assault was added just for dramatic purposes?, morbid I know, but it is what it is. I am not saying you believe that but I have heard preachers actually say things like that. I know that's sounds a little "dark" but yeah. Any way I know a lot of people share your view about God knowing every thing we do before we do it, and like you they can't explain certain scripture that shows at times God finds out things the way we do. So I believe God, according to the bible at times does not have foreknowledge about certain things. The bible shows us this and you have not been able to successfully explained that away really, other then claiming thats not really what it means, but you can say that about anything in the bible :)

[Ironman]

Rocky,

God knew beforehand that Justaned would know what God did not know before God knew it, so he could explain it all to us, that's not called free will, that's called, justanedifiable forknowledge

[stand]

To me there is no absolute freewill. God creates the creations with different degrees of freedom. We all have choices in stages of our lives, basically the choice to obey or to disobey God. God does allow us to disobey Him in this dispensation to test and train us. And similar to but much much more superior to a super super computer in a chess game. God can predict whatever moves everyone of us make in our lifetime, responds accordingly and still be sure that His eternal purposes bring fulfilled eventually.