Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ The Rapture!

[Ray]

Ray.

Do you know the rapture takes place at least seven years before the second coming of christ. Christ is not personally, physically on the Earth here now ruling the Earth. The rapture takes place before the tribulation, and the second coming after the tribulation. The rapture is the time when Christ comes FOR the saints (1 Thess. 4:13-17), and the second coming is when He comes back to the Earth WITH them (Zech. 14:1-5; Jude 14; Rev. 19:11-21). At the rapture, Christ takes the saints to heaven (1 Thess. 3:13; 4:16; Col. 3:4), and at the second coming He Leaves Heaven with them (Rev. 19 11-21). At the rapture Christ does not come to Earth (1 thess.4:16) but at the second coming He does (Zech.14:14; Matt. 24:29-31). Since Christ does not come to earth at the rapture, it cannot be called the second coming of Christ.

The rapture must and does take place before the fulfilment of Rev. 4-22, which describes the tribulation period and the Millennium and the New Earth after the Millennium. According to 2 Thess. 2:7-8 it is stated that "the Hinderer of lawlessness will be taken out of the way," "And Then shall the wicked be revealed" and since the wicked is here for the last seven years of this age, according to Dan. 9:27, the hinderer must be removed before the Antichrist comes and before the tribulation that he will cause when he comes. The hinderer referred to in 2 Thess. 2:7-8 is the church, and also that the Antichrist cannot possibly be revealed until after the church us taken out of the way. Now comes the question of whether the Antichrist will be revealed at the beginning or at the middle of the Week, then it can also be proved that the church is raptured before the beginning and not the middle of the Week as the manchild. In Dan. 9:27 we have one indisputable argument that he is revealed at the beginning of the Week, for he makes a covenant for seven years with Israel and not for three and one half years. The breaking of the covenant in the middle of the Week is not a revelation of him on the scene of action, but an unfolding of what he is to do in the middle of the Week, three and one half years after his revelation. This passage gives one of the scriptural marks by which we may know who the Antichrist is and when he is to be revealed. If the church is raptured in the middle of the Week there would be a definite time set for the rapture and we should quit looking for the rapture at any other time and look for the events which mark the appearance of the seventieth Week. But if the Church goes through the terrible events of the seals and trumpets, then the promise of Jesus that true believers shall "escape all these things" is contradicted and Paul's teaching that the church is caught up before the revelation of the Antichrist is also contradicted, for the Antichrist is here three and one half years before the middle of the Week. Therefore, once we understand that the church can be raptured any day and that there is no definite time set for that event, then we can conscientiously teach others that they should be ready for the rapture at any and all times. In Thess. 5:1-11 we have another definite promise assuring us that the saints will escape the wrath which precedes the day of the Lord. "God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation [deliverance from this wrath] by our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him." The second advent marks the beginning of the day of the Lord. This wrath is revealed in Matt. 24-25; Luke 21; Rev. 6:1-19:21 and is to be fulfilled during the Seventieth Week. If the saints escape this wrath, the church must be raptured before the Week or in Rev. 4:1. Prophetical date Setting (Matt. 24:36-25:46) It is definitely stated and illustrated in these verses that no man will know the day or the hour of the second coming of Christ to the Earth. All we may know is "the times and seasons" which prove the nearness of the second advent (1 Thess. 5:1-9). To keep His disciples from speculating as to the day and hour of His coming, Christ gives a comparison showing a similarity between the days of Noah and the days just before His coming and states that men before the flood "knew not untill the flood came and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matt. 24:37-39; 1 Thess. 5:1-3; Jude 14.

Haz,
If allowed I would like to comment on some of what you have written. And thank you for sharing and taking the time to write out much of what you see and have learned to become your view of Eschatology.

You first open your writing with "Do you know the rapture takes place at least seven years before the second coming of christ."
My Answer to this question is NO I don't know such. And what verse or verses do you use to back such a teaching?

You go on to present "The rapture is the time when Christ comes FOR the saints (1 Thess. 4:13-17), and the second coming is when He comes back to the Earth WITH them (Zech. 14:1-5; Jude 14; Rev. 19:11-21)."
Haz, You, and many who teach what you are teaching use this statement you use above to back your stance, Yet what you present actually destroys what you are teaching. You use 1 Thess 4:13-17 and say these verses speak of the Rapture which is separate from the second coming, Teaching that in the rapture "Christ comes FOR the saints " yet in the second coming "He comes back to the Earth WITH them".

When the 1 Thess passage you present for the rapture actually teaches CHRIST comes FOR the saints AND HE comes back with them.
1 Thess 4:
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

When CHRIST decends from Heaven He will Rapture HIS Saints and restore this Earth to a true Theocracy (as it was before the fall) No 7 years trib or a future 1000 years between these events as they occur at one very same time.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Acts 3:21
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

You Also wrote:
" In Dan. 9:27 we have one indisputable argument that he is revealed at the beginning of the Week, for he makes a covenant for seven years with Israel and not for three and one half years. The breaking of the covenant in the middle of the Week is not a revelation of him on the scene of action, but an unfolding of what he is to do in the middle of the Week, three and one half years after his revelation."

Haz I have studied what has come to be known as Daniel's 70 week prophecy and Haz NOWHERE and I repeat NO WHERE is the breaking of a covenant in ANY WAY mentioned.

I would like to if permitted to comment further on what you have presented Haz, and in NO WAY am I disrespecting what you have come to know as Truth,
Hopefully we can continue this discussion.

[Ray]

I am glad someone has the energy to do this great job Ironman. And Ray this it takes teaching and harmonizing the bible. You already know the scriptures that are used I am sure you have a DARB to study, I just don't see the point no matter what I show or anyone else you already have your mind made up. And I can actually see someone mistaken the two judgments as one of the same judgment to someone who is not familiar or who has not study this out, but to believe that the 1000 year reign of Christ as allegorical is absurd to say the least.. Why do you believ that who lead you astray? Someone got in head, I bet at one time you believed the way we do on this I bet you even bought a DARB..

Yeah Rocky,
I once believed as you do as it was and is taught in many, many churches.Yeah Someone got into my head and Heart And showed me I must let the Scriptures ALONE be where I must stand in TRUTH.

[Ray]

Haz,
Earlier you wrote:
"The hinderer referred to in 2 Thess. 2:7-8 is the church, and also that the Antichrist cannot possibly be revealed until after the church us taken out of the way."

What you have written above is Exactly the teaching the Apostle Paul WARNS us against.

2 Thessalonians 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

[Rocky]

I am glad someone has the energy to do this great job Ironman. And Ray this it takes teaching and harmonizing the bible. You already know the scriptures that are used I am sure you have a DARB to study, I just don't see the point no matter what I show or anyone else you already have your mind made up. And I can actually see someone mistaken the two judgments as one of the same judgment to someone who is not familiar or who has not study this out, but to believe that the 1000 year reign of Christ as allegorical is absurd to say the least.. Why do you believ that who lead you astray? Someone got in head, I bet at one time you believed the way we do on this I bet you even bought a DARB..

Yeah Rocky,
I once believed as you do as it was and is taught in many, many churches.Yeah Someone got into my head and Heart And showed me I must let the Scriptures ALONE be where I must stand in TRUTH.

Ahhh but Ray you are not letting the Scriptures ALONE interpret them selves, you are doing in allegorically. I would actually be open to a mid or post trib of the catching up of the saints because I am aware throughout history many have believed differently concerning that. How ever I believe a pre trib is the most likely interpretation. But to believe that the 1000 year reign of christ is just allegorical for the church age is a denial of scripture that is plainly taught in the bible. To do this makes the bible open to all kinds of false ideas because where's the line drawn at interpreting the bible in such ways? If this is the way the bible is to be interpreted then why not allegorically make any scripture make it mean what we want to mean? The gnostics did that with the scripture, to me this is dangerous. I believe you have been lead astray concerning the kingdom age, And the person or persons who did it may need to do some repenting.. You believe as the Catholics do about this, and there are so many holes and holes are so huge in their beliefs about this that you could drive a mac truck through them.. Believing as Catholicism does about this should be somewhat as a warning sign to you..

[Justaned]

I am glad someone has the energy to do this great job Ironman. And Ray this it takes teaching and harmonizing the bible. You already know the scriptures that are used I am sure you have a DARB to study, I just don't see the point no matter what I show or anyone else you already have your mind made up. And I can actually see someone mistaken the two judgments as one of the same judgment to someone who is not familiar or who has not study this out, but to believe that the 1000 year reign of Christ as allegorical is absurd to say the least.. Why do you believ that who lead you astray? Someone got in head, I bet at one time you believed the way we do on this I bet you even bought a DARB..

Yeah Rocky,
I once believed as you do as it was and is taught in many, many churches.Yeah Someone got into my head and Heart And showed me I must let the Scriptures ALONE be where I must stand in TRUTH.

Ahhh but Ray you are not letting the Scriptures ALONE interpret them selves, you are doing in allegorically. I would actually be open to a mid or post trib of the catching up of the saints because I am aware throughout history many have believed differently concerning that. How ever I believe a pre trib is the most likely interpretation. But to believe that the 1000 year reign of christ is just allegorical for the church age is a denial of scripture that is plainly taught in the bible. To do this makes the bible open to all kinds of false ideas because where's the line drawn at interpreting the bible in such ways? If this is the way the bible is to be interpreted then why not allegorically make any scripture make it mean what we want to mean? The gnostics did that with the scripture, to me this is dangerous. I believe you have been lead astray concerning the kingdom age, And the person or persons who did it may need to do some repenting.. You believe as the Catholics do about this, and there are so many holes and holes are so huge in their beliefs about this that you could drive a mac truck through them.. Believing as Catholicism does about this should be somewhat as a warning sign to you..

Rocky
I really didn't have a dog in this fight but I was reading your last post and I just could not remain silent. You offered no rebuttal to Ray based on any fact. The only thing you did was suggest his method of Bible interpretation was akin to Gnostics. You then characterized his beliefs as being so bad that the person that taught it to him needs to repent. And then lastly you said he believed as Catholics do.

In other words you tried your very best to discredit Ray not what he said. And you didn't to it with facts or evidence of any kind. Instead you tried to invalidate Ray by character assassination and casting doubt on his salvation or suggesting he might be part of the dreaded Catholic mob.

Now in the past when you did this to me and I called you on it, you accused me of getting angry, or you would try to deflect me with one of your childish remarks. I'm neither angry nor is there any option to deflect what I'm saying.

Read your last post and see what I'm talking about, then REPENT.

"Marx and Engels never tried to refute their opponents with argument. They insulted, ridiculed, derided, slandered, and traduced them, and in the use of these methods their followers are not less expert. Their polemic is directed never against the argument of the opponent, but always against his person."

[Rocky]

Ed you didn't read the whole conversation did you? I really don't care what you think and what your opinion is. You are nothing more then a nuisance. So what you said here is irrelevant. Go back and read all the crap you have said to me and others on here before you take the self righteous high horse. I not once said anything about his salvation or him as a person, all you are doing is being a troll and a jerk like you usually do. I was addressing his belief about the 1000 reign of Christ is the same beliefs as that Catholics share about this specific subject. You did not read really read what I wrote you just want an excuse to argue and belittle someone. Ed are the poorest excuse for a Christian I have ever met on a forum I am glad when I first became a Christian that I did not meet someone like you or I probably would have backslid. if I had to use you like an example. You spread false theology acted self righteous and point fingers at everyone else like a Pharisee.I believe it best for you and I to stay away from each other on here

[Rocky]

Oh and another thing the inactivity on here is because of you, have you not figures that out yet? add me to the list of people that is done with you on here. Ed has talked about my family ridiculed me over my appearance and ridiculed me on here in other threads There is a reason why your posts get moderated on here. And then you play the hypocrite because I disagreed with Ray, Pretty shady Ed pretty shady.

[Rocky]

Repent? have you ever repented at the stuff you have said to others and my self on here?? You have even almost caused me to quit this forum a few times all you have been is a discouragement to me. Ed you didn't read the whole conversation did you? I really don't care what you think and what your opinion is. You are nothing more then a nuisance. So what you said here is irrelevant. Go back and read all the crap you have said to me and others on here before you take the self righteous high horse. I not once said anything about his salvation or him as a person, all you are doing is being a troll and a jerk like you usually do. I was addressing his belief about the 1000 reign of Christ is the same beliefs as that Catholics share about this specific subject. You did not read really read what I wrote you just want an excuse to argue and belittle someone. Ed you are the poorest excuse for a Christian I have ever met on a forum. I am glad when I first became a Christian that I did not meet someone like you or I probably would have backslid and walked away if being a Christian means being like you and if I had to use you as an example. You spread false theology acted self righteous and point fingers at everyone else like a Pharisee.I believe it best for you and I to stay away from each other on here

I really want you to get what I wrote and maybe you should repent of all the stuff you have said to me, Troy, Leon and macca and cpbeller on here... What a Hypocrite. Oh and my wife has seen what you have said about, my kids and her in other threads because of the way I look, and the derogatory remark you have made towards me, and she is thinking about make a profile on here just to address and show what you have said Sorry to others for getting angry, I am just sick of Ed on here Ed is condemning someone for what he actually does on here..

[Justaned]

Ed you didn't read the whole conversation did you? I really don't care what you think and what your opinion is. You are nothing more then a nuisance. So what you said here is irrelevant. Go back and read all the crap you have said to me and others on here before you take the self righteous high horse. I not once said anything about his salvation or him as a person, all you are doing is being a troll and a jerk like you usually do. I was addressing his belief about the 1000 reign of Christ is the same beliefs as that Catholics share about this specific subject. You did not read really read what I wrote you just want an excuse to argue and belittle someone. Ed are the poorest excuse for a Christian I have ever met on a forum I am glad when I first became a Christian that I did not meet someone like you or I probably would have backslid. if I had to use you like an example. You spread false theology acted self righteous and point fingers at everyone else like a Pharisee.I believe it best for you and I to stay away from each other on here

I removed what I said because I realized I didn't want to respond that way. Let me say this instead of attacking some one, their character or trying to a character assassination produce evidence the proves what they said is wrong.

[Justaned]

Oh and another thing the inactivity on here is because of you, have you not figures that out yet? add me to the list of people that is done with you on here. Ed has talked about my family ridiculed me over my appearance and ridiculed me on here in other threads There is a reason why your posts get moderated on here. And then you play the hypocrite because I disagreed with Ray, Pretty shady Ed pretty shady.

I have told Bibleman many many many times the minute he feels I am being detrimental to the forum to let me know and I will leave instantly. Never has happened. Yet you accuse me of everything. I didn't play anything I simply pointed out you did not respond to Ray's point instead you attempted to assassinate his character. If Ray is wrong then produce factual evidence to prove he is wrong. Don't just say Ray's wrong.

" Their polemic is directed never against the argument of the opponent, but always against his person."